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Mr Alan
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3cazzi,
I notice that your byline is "too much is not enough."
Judging from your posts on this subject (which unfortunately, some naive people like kjayson7 have believed), that is an apt summary of your hatred of the USA.
In the interest of winding down this thread, I think I will leave things at that.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 12:41 pm on Sep. 5, 2003
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3cazzi
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Why you say so ?
I don't understand, I reread all my posts in this thread and I don't find a single phrase against USA...
I really don't understand this American psycological complex that make you see that way anytime that someone says that not all Americans are good boys...
I love Americans as I love the Romans, because they are my cultural background.
But I am not blind, and so I love them for what they are.
Do you ?
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 1:10 pm on Sep. 5, 2003
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expatchuck
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3cazzi:
You have stated.....bomb the American factories..."which produces the (sic) 70% of the weapons which are used around the planet."
Where, pray tell, did you obtain your 70% figure? ÝIs this number the result of some research on your part or Ýis it possibly a figure you pulled out of the air? ÝWhat are you including in your blanket statement about weapons? ÝAre you including hand guns, long guns, artillary pieces, smart or dumb bombs, grenades, etc.? ÝAre you including the weapons platforms themselves?
If you are making irresponsible statements, as this appears to be, you should be prepared to back them up. ÝPlease do so.
Have you ever wondered why the Japanese government did not evacuate Nagasaki and Hiroshima before the bombs were dropped. ÝSince you appear to be all knowing on this subject, you would be aware that over-flights were made of both of these cities by the US Air Force several days before the actual events, dropping pamphlets warning the citizens Ýthat the bombs were coming. ÝPerhaps many lives could have been saved had the Japanese government elected to evacuate the two cities themselves. ÝDoes the Japanese government not share some responsibility also? ÝThey started the war on December 7, 1941!!!
The next thing you will be saying is the US was responsible for WWII and that Hitler and the Japanese military commanders were simply misunderstood and not really bad men.
Lastly you seem to be saying the 120,00 or so lives lost when the bombs fell was a greater price to pay than the estimated one to two million souls that would have been lost in an invasion of Japan.
Your logic is flawed.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 1:30 pm on Sep. 5, 2003
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Smegma
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Quote: from Mr Alan on 3:49 pm on Sep. 5, 2003
It is interesting to speculate (with 20-20 hindsight) about all the advantages to the US of using the atomic bomb against Japan, such as preventing Soviet aggression in the post-war era. It is certainly possible that these considerations were taken into account. But I don't know if any evidence exists that the Soviet threat was actually a factor in the decision, and Harry Truman was not the brightest guy around. I don't recall that it was a consideration of the committee that Robert Oppenheimer participated in that recommended that the atomic bomb be used against Japan (which he spoke about publicly afterward).
Well, I guess you haven't read enough about the matter, because it is not speculation and not a possibility, but a well known fact that the Soviets were a big factor in the decission.
Not only was the matter of the Soviets involvement in the Pacific discussed by the politicians when considering the use of the bomb, but even by the scientist themselves. And yes, Oppenheimer discussed the Soviet angle with many.
Secretary-of-State-designate at the time James Byrnes later gave lenghty interviews to historians on how the Soviets were a factor in the decission.
On July 24 Truman mentioned the bomb to Stalin at Postdam. That same day General Antonov, Red Army chief of staff told his allied counterparts that Soviet troops were assembling on the Manchurian border and would be ready to attack in the second half of August. Byrnes expressed concern about the timing of the Soviets and as a result that same day while in Postdam General Marshall and Secretary of War Stimson approved the directive for the release of the atomic bomb to use (presumably after showing it to Truman). The directive was drafted by General Groves, the Director of the Manhattan Engineer District (best known as the Manhattan Project).
BTW, the Japanese did not receive any "specific" warnings regarding "the bomb"as stated in the previous post. Byrnes said in his memoirs: "We feared that if the japanese were told that the bomb would be used on a given locality, they might bring our boys who were prisoners of war to that area"
For a good reading on this subject -which includes details even about the discussions that went on regarding target selection, I suggest "The Making Of The Atomic Bomb" by Richard Rhodes - 1986.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 4:20 pm on Sep. 5, 2003
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Minder
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Wake up people - if the general feelings of the day in 1945 had been carried through the islands of Japan even today would be a crackling radioactive ruin uninhabitable for another thousand life times - revenge might be old fashioned and not politically correct but frankly its easier to understand that than why some people now feel that what applies today applied in the 1940s and wonder why a year 2000 moral code was not applied back then.
Stand in Adelaide River cemetery beside the graves of the victims of the Darwin bombings, or in what is now Chungkai war cemetery where once the surgeons worked and imagine the graves are fresh - I was raised by people who lived through those times - I know the hatred that they felt (still feel) for "the Nips" - and I'll say this, many people felt then that the Japs got off lightly and were shown a heck of a lot more mercy than they ever showed to a beaten foe.
Plenty of people thought the Yanks only half finished the job....again
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 12:26 am on Sep. 6, 2003
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Smegma
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Minder, though those may have been the general feelings of the population at large (influenced by war propaganda), you may be surprised by "some" of the "humanitarian" (it may be the wrong term, but I can not think of any other) considerations the USA leaders looked into and reviewed when selecting the specific targets for THE bombs. The general feeling of the population at large -of all the sides involved at the time- was mostly the result of propaganda, and as the politicians knew better -as such views were the result of their own propaganda, they also knew better when to refrain from following themselves what would have been the actions expected to result from such feelings.
For a while there were even discussions about doing a demo-show of THE bomb for the Japanese, entertaining the idea that just a show of its destructive power could be enough to convince them to surrender. Of course they quickly realized that the risk of such a demo-test failing didn't compensate the benefits. And that is why "surprise-use" was decided.
However, most of the "humanitarian" considerations had also selfish ulterior reasons. Of course. But I would say that imo the USA leaders of that time were better than those of today when planning the aftermath of victory and how to "win the peace".
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 12:49 am on Sep. 6, 2003
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expatchuck
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Smegs:
Believe we are both right and wrong. ÝI can find no reference to a warning being issued prior to the Hiroshima bomb on 5 August. ÝMy mistake there. ÝI did find reference and a translation issued to the remaining cities on the target listing, including Nagasaki, that were dropped on the listed cities on 6 August.
These leaflets were specific in that they stated the Allies had developed the "most destructive explosive" ever devised by man. ÝIt further went on to claim the device had the "explosive power to what 2000 of our giant B-29s can carry on a single mission. ÝThe reference is:
Ý Ý http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/truman/psources/ps_leaflets.html
It is interesting to note that Russia declared war on Japan on 8 August. ÝNagasaki was bombed on 9 August and the Japanese High Command sued for peace on 10 August.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:33 am on Sep. 6, 2003
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Smegma
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Expat, I guess you are right about both of us being right and wrong.  Does this make me also right now?
Yes, very interesting timing indeed.
On the interesting topic raised before of target selection, this is from General Groves notes on the meeting with his Target Commitee:
"I had set as the governing factor that the targets chosen should be places the bombing of which would most adversely affect the will of the Japanese people to continue the war. Beyond that, the target should be military in nature,ie important headquarters or troop concentrations, or centers of production of military equipment and supplies. To enable us to assess accurately the effects of the bomb, the targets should not have been previously damaged by air raids. It was also desirable the the first target be of such size that the damage would be confined within it, so that we could more definitely determine the power of the bomb"
"Hiroshima is the largest untouched target not on the 21st Bomber Command priority list. Consideration should be given to this city"
(typos if any are mine - I transcribed the text by typing it myself as I couldn't find the text in the internet)
The irony at this time was that the Target Committee was able to instruct sparing some Japanese cities from the ongoing unending firebombing being carried out all over Japan, preserving them through a beautiful spring, for a more drastic encounter with history later on.
A very short summary (which does not do justice) of the book I mentioned above is found here:
http://216.239.33.104/search?q=cache:ybTuhJS92YgJ:www.umsl.edu/~rkeel/280/class/
atombomb.html+important+headquarters+or+troop+concentrations,+or+centers+of&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
(sorry but the link was too long and I had to break it in two or it would break havoc in the format here. You will have to cut and past the two together when writting the URL on the address window of your browser).
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 3:27 am on Sep. 6, 2003
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Minder
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Smegma - Those missing large branches from family trees don't need and never needed "propaganda" to hate the Japs for what they did. ÝHatred for the Japs actually grew after the war when the full lists of their atrocities (such as their treatment of POWs, their genocide of the Chinese in Singapore, their methods with native populations' etc etc etc) became more widely known. Pearl Harbour paled in comparison.
If all their war crimes were known prior to the cessation of hostilities I doubt they would have escaped with the couple of "slaps on the wrist" that were Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
You are a source of excellent historical material and I have already cut and pasted some of your earlier posts but you remind me of the character in the film "Titanic" who has the computer simulation of the sinking and fails to see that these were real people with real emotions. Ý
General Groves offical notes may well give his reasons for recommending Hiroshima - and they do make interesting reading - but his real reason may have been as personal as it was the hometown of the General whose division killed his best friend - we'll never really know.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 9:22 pm on Sep. 6, 2003
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kaisersoldaten
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I won't get too long winded here scazi, but nuking Hiroshim and Nagasaki was either a moral decision or immoral. When the Nips slaughtered millions of Asians, that was a moral decision. I do not care how brutal war gets, morality still plays a factor. Iraq is a brutal place but the Coalition Forces are going around and committing massacres. When a Palestinian Nazi in a headscarf goes on a bus and murders Jewish schoolchildren (ah yes, there are soldiers and taxpayers on those buses) he makes a moral decision so he can rape 72 virgins.
Nuking Japan was a matter of decision as to how to get the Nips to quit; microwaving the twin cities was the best option that would cause the least amount of casualties.
Not to brag folks, but next Friday I will be an Enola Gay extra in the upcoming BBC docu on Enola Gay.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:40 pm on Sep. 6, 2003
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