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Dave
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Mr Joe
having spent quite a few years in business, it always pleases me when an unexpected return comes back for a favour freely given. Not a bad "life" philosophy.
But more seriously, I was contemplating helping another girl who had lost her job in PC sales in BKK. I had known her some time and really wanted to help her.
So I was running through the outline business checks which included a quick look at her full picture. Like many TG's she was knitted into her family. I concluded that the family would always be a constant drain on her, nomatter how successful. I saw gambling, lack of any business appreciation, and everything felt wrong. So I had to say NO to that one.
Dave
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 8:36 am on Jan. 10, 2003
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MrJoe
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Any association with gambling or too much submission to an exploitative family situation is always a deal-breaker for me too.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 8:40 am on Jan. 10, 2003
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Bigin
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My reg. and I have been through all those same conversations. I'm no buisness man on any professional level, but not completely stupid either. In other words, "I dont fail to plan." It was more so, for me to have some kind of buisness in LOS at the time than it was for her to escape. She was working clubs, bars, whatever, but as the hostess waitress type. I know they are B/Fable too. But she was always very selective, so no biggie to me. Any way she was saying shit like "oh I dont think i'm smart enough for runing buisness." I kept the encouragement up, and seemingly it's paying off. She's out of BKK now and manageing a beer bar for rich Katoey. Gaining valuable experience in the process. I got lucky that she can break into it without any capital from me. It's been more than a year since she's been doing it, and when I come to LOS she always meets me in BKK. Next trip, i'll go and meet her to see how well she's progressed. If things look right i'll probably get my/her ball rolling soon. if everybody could be that lucky huh!!!
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:12 am on Jan. 10, 2003
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BoomARang
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Hi All,
Sorry, but this is going to be a long post. Ý
It is my first post to this board and I want to give a bit of background about myself and also I have been spending the last month or so reading every post of every thread I have had an interest in before registering so I have a lot to reply to/ respond to/say in each of the various threads.
As an aside, DarkKnight, the member's profile does not allow for one to give others an oportunity to learn much about a given member's history and background and it seems in many cases that knowing one's background would make it easier to measure one's response to "newbies", such as myself. ÝWould possibly and "Introduction" thread/section be useful?
I was planning to take each thread in turn and do as I will do here, copy and paste from each pertinent post, with quotes, until I have caught up. Ý
As each of my initial posts in each thread is likely to be long, I will use replies to this post as a gauge as to how to conduct further participation and will not post in other threads until I have either a positive responses to this post or as in ISO meetings and discussions, silence = agreement.  ÝOn the other hand, totally negative responses with no positive constructive criticisms will likely be ignored and those of a totally negative bent hopefully will have a large diameter "pipe" leading to their favorite board reading 'puter. Ý;-)
But, also, this can be used as somewhat as a warning so that all of you can know my initial style and can choose wisely and pass over my initial posts in each thread, which can be deduced by checking the latest poster, and whom feel my posts as not generally being pertinent or not worth replying to, ignore them. ÝI do have a "bad" habit of replying to posts in a conversational style, i.e. "reply to everything!" Ý;-) Ý:-( ÝBut then again, I reply to the good parts, i.e. I agree with, as well as the "bad" parts, i.e. my experience is different.
As a preface and to hopefully set my tone of participation, when I first started reading the various threads in the various topic areas, I periodically got the feeling that, "Boy, this guy is totally off base!", but then in a totally different thread I have felt that the same person and I saw eye to eye. Ý
I think that most of the people/posts I thought of as being totally off base were either a case of either A. us simply not having the same experiences, B. not having the same level of understanding of Thai culture, or C. that we did not have the same level of understanding of the teachings of Sidhartha, upon which many of the practices and thinking of the Thai culture is based. ÝThis mainly regards the difference between a "Prostitute" and a "Public woman".
On the other hand, sometimes I post not to disagree but instead to hopefully illuminate the "point" in a different light.
I think most of the disagreements I have seen have been based on "B" and "C", judging Thailand by Western and or localized ingrained religious/social standards, or a lack of either seems to be cause the largest number of problems during "East meets West" situations.
About myself:
Male, 42 years old. Ý
Born in the US but adopted into a Japanese family and lived on and off, from the age of 15, with the last 15 years being virtually continuous, in Japan. Ý
Have a US Passport/name/family as well as a Japanese Passport/name/family. ÝSaid familes being non-wife/non-children. Ý
For about 5 years, spent 1/3 to 2/3's of each year in the Isaan province, and there abouts, on an exchange program with my local Buddhist temple/sect whereby we go to Thailand to help build/rebuild/restore Wat in exchange for Thai Phra coming to Japan for extended teaching. ÝWe provide structures for their teaching, they provide teaching structures for our lives. ÝUntil about 1 year ago, did not even know about the P4P situation in Thailand even though I had been going there for a number of years. ÝHow I learned about it, may be an interesting story.
I have a Thai girlfriend, Tham, to whom my heart is married, who has two sons from a previous marriage. Ý Her younger son I have adopted and is here in Japan attending school and, her older son who is already an adult and on his own. ÝHer younger son is a true genious while her older son is not as bright although both are Jai-dee beyond what I have known among children in the past.
ÝHow her and I met may be an interesting story for some although I will not include it here but will say that part of her life experience is pertinent to a number of discussions on this board.
So, replies to posts in this thread:
TPE - "the more they get, the more they want". Ý
You are talking about me, right? Ý;-) ÝI find Tham to be the more stablizing factor in our relationship. ÝI have always had more grandious plans for the future but I always find her able to bring things back to "reality" in many situations. Ý
Married young and only "recently" on her own with two sons, she didn't really have any idea of what her current "reality" was other than it being something she could not deal with. ÝI helped her see the reality of her situation and, with prompting from her about her desires, she then helped me see the reality of our situation, although "our" situation is continually changing.
TPE- "I often suggest, that the answer is to set-up your TG in a small business."
ÝGive a man a fish and they eat for a day but teach him to fish and they can eat for the rest of his life? ÝOr, as I jokingly put it, "Teach a man to build a fire and he will be warm for the night, douse a man with gasoline and then set him on fire and he will be warm the rest of his life!" Ý;-)
ÝThe former is what I did with my girlfriend. ÝI payed for her English schooling, to better her chances of living where ever and doing whatever she/we may find herself/ourselves living or doing in the future, and then sent her to beauty school, which is what she was interested in, so that she could learn a useful trade. ÝPrevious to that all she had been, except for a short period of time, was a wife and mother.
TPE - "another popular one is a hairdressing/and or beauty-make up course, then open a salon". Ý
Which is what happened with us. ÝShe now pays two shampoo girls, plus her own salary and her salon, about 30 klicks from Surin, profits 100,000 baht a year. ÝSaid salaries being 3,000 and 7,000 thb a month respectively.
TPE - "most TGs are not stupid". Ý
Put that in my perspective, ÝI'm the world's leading expert on/in MPEG Intelectual Property Management and Protection (IPMP), if one doesn't belive me I can give a list of published papers and references on the subject. ÝThere is very little about publically known digital security that I don't know and a fair amount that I do know that no one else yet knows but, Tham has blown me away time and time again by her "simple" understanding of life. ÝIf I learn 1/10th as much as I have taught her or have helped her to learn as I have learned from her, I would consider myself a VERY astute student!
BigDUsa -
"I could see me slopping the hogs and being farmer BiGDUSA...... Then I woke up and realized ain't gonna happen. I don't see myself sponsering anyone in LOS."
Interesting idea/point, although seemingly disjointed, are you talking about helping one to improves one's life that you would eventually become part of or something of a totally charitable situation? ÝIf the former, I've slopped the hogs as well as written ISO specifications and could and do anything from one end to the other the rest of my life if I could live on it but the later, I can't afford it now so it doesn't even come into question.
BallsBurstin - First of all, time spent in a Thai Jail and add to that being put there by people you trusted,,,, I can only say your "partner" is lucky to be still alive. ÝHad he been mine, pushing up daisies he would consider lucky. ÝAlso, moving to Japan? ÝI live in Yokohama, if you don't contact me at samurai_coder@hotmail.com, I will be disappointed.
ÝBut to the point of your post;
"First, I think she feels school is hard and has elements of "mai sanuuk" (heaven forbid that anyone has to study hard). Second, she really wants to do something where she gets out of the apartment and does something the Thais are so famous for: socializing." Ý
Two good points! ÝNo matter who, ones needs to see the potential benefits of strife. ÝBut then again, who has not openly complained about the rough road ahead only looking for confirmation that the result would be worth it? ÝI hated all of my education years, which still continue, but almost all of my previous teachers are now good friends as are especially those that I complained to hoping that they would agree that I quit! ÝEducation is not easy, in fact it sometimes, if not many times can be down right painful, but a light at the end of the tunnel is useful. Ý
"Socializing" YES YES YES YES YES!!! ÝThe Thai community seems to be all about social interactions. ÝTake a Thai Girl out of an area where she can interact socially, usually meaning no other Thai, and she is a fish out of water. ÝBut, some sort of sales/marketing/service position that can be found for a given Thai woman in Thailand, that she has a chance to succeed in, that doesn't include P4P, is more likely to succeed. ÝExport her and try to find a local Thai community for her to interact with and usually she will not become a wilting flower. Ý
Me? ÝI go native where ever I am and here in Japan avoid "Gaijin", unless they need help or I have some previous personal connection, but not everyone is that way. ÝI've had to learn to adapt top totally foreign circumstances and situations virtually all my life so to me, it is normal.
BallsBurstin - "it's a great alternative to an over-generous sponsorship" Ý
In my opinion, it is the only alternative, ne, it is the only chance of any success. ÝSupporting one in the lifestyle that one is accustomed to without any future potential is like paying alimony. ÝOr, from a "ficticious" divorce court proceeding, "I would like to be supported in the lifestyle to which I would like to be accustomed to." Ý;-)
HaamSup - "Even assuming you snatch her out of the place before she becomes habituated to the routine and comfort zone that the bar represents after a few weeks, she will miss the easy money."
"Easy money"? ÝIf it is easy money then she, in my estimation, is already lost. ÝYes, there is the question of "prostitute" vs. "Public woman" but it is very hard to raise one's self once one has accepted a level of "Public woman". ÝTeachings from millenia ago are sometimes not that far off thousands of years later.
HaamSup - "become a bit longer in the tooth, and feels her days are numbered in the bar scene, the story depends on whether she was a 'no tomorrow' type" Ý
Tham is 36 years old, longer in the tooth but even for her, there literally was no tomorrow because of responsibilities that put here in her particular position in the first place. ÝTreading water is not a problem once one is at the surface.
PackRipper - "it's a question of whether they really want to do it or no"
Yes yes yes yes!!! ÝThe question is, how does one know whether or not they really want to do it?
PackRipper - "If they had the work ethic, that could easily be made in well less than a year working the biz " Ý
Maybe yes, maybe no, who is to say how deep a given girl or family is in debt or what a given woman's situation is at a given time? ÝI've always moved up the ladder regarding my job position but there are very few times that it hasn't taken me a year or two to recover from the step up. Ý"She" may seem succesful and popular but one may only be looking at a very short time slice.
PackRipper - "what you need is some self respect and self discipline, young lass." Ý
True in "many" cases in the West but not so true in the East. ÝLife has a terrible habit of putting more pressure on one than one's own self respect and discipline can deal with. ÝAlong with that, what upbringing or training have most people had in times of extreme hardship? ÝI've had extensive physical and emotional defensive and offensive training so I can walk away from many situations that those without the same training would end up crippled by. Ý"Were I you, I would not do that." But, can there really be any comparison? Ý"All things being equal",,,, but what is "equal"?
MrJoe - "if she really wants to she can do it on her own." Ý
That may be true on an academic Ýfiscal level but on an emotional level, not usually the case. ÝThai women generally look for security in their life from men, and later from their children. ÝIn the P4P arena, they see their bodies lasting much longer as a means of support than they do a given company's or Falang's means of support. Ý
From my limited experience, most sponsors that I have heard of, from women I know, usually last less than a year, for one reason or another. ÝIt takes more than a year to get back on one's feet in many cases. ÝBut, as Dave and Mr. Joe also point to, if the will is there, there is a chance, otherwise, find a hole in the ground to throw money into. Ý
The real kicker is finding the right one to apply one's resources towards. ÝDoing that takes time as well as an understanding of the background of the given woman.
MrJoe - "small pat on the back for that." Ý
"Small"? ÝTo try to change another person's chances and prospect for a future life, you call that "small"? ÝYou, Dave, and others here seem to have given to women, whom you had no specific plan for a future relationship with, unselfishly. ÝCan I say the same, I would be lying if I did. ÝSome of you make me feel selfish, although strangely enough, I am glad you do! Ý
Yes, I do and have done what I can in my own way to pay kharmic dept but to take an adult whose only saving grace is your having met her and her showing potential for improvement with your help, that's a totally different story!
MrJoe - "I created a creature that I couldn't control and who reveled in its newfound power at the same time as it resented me for giving it life. But that's another story" Ý
I would love to hear that story!
MrJoe - "I did for my own satisfaction -- as is essentially true of everything I do." Ý
Generally, a bad person does bad things for their satisfaction, a good person does good things for their satisfaction, are they the same? ÝTo try to help another soul to improve their situation in life, that does not deserve respect?
BallsBurstin - "get her out of the scene and into a space that's comfortable enough financially and otherwise" Ý
The problem here is that too many have seen sponsorships come and go. ÝFarangs have the internet to learn about BGs and GGGs but they have the TG Grapevine. ÝToo many times things are fine for a while but 6, 9, 12 months later the money stops for one reason or another. ÝAfter a couple of times of that happening, the question becomes, "why wait? ÝThe money is going to stop coming so why not keep doing what "I'm" doing and if he comes across and either comes here to live or takes me there, what guarentee do "I" have?" Ý"Taking the best years of my life." can take on a whole new meaning!
BallsBurstin - " think the sponsorship thing can make for a "gentler landing"" Ý
Very true and if a woman is caught early, that many times will be enough but, if she has seen it before and it didn't last, she will probably end up stacking up sponsors unless she gets more assuarance than she has had in the past.
MrJoe - "it's just having a GF whom you are trying to help out. To me being a sponsor is something else." Ý
I heartily agree!!! ÝTwo totally different situations with possibly/probably totally different risks! ÝFinancial/emotional.
TPE - "think this scenario would work better with girls a bit older, who realise the BG days are numbered"
Is that surprising? ÝIf you were their age and able to get the money, relatively, that they can get, doing what they do, what would you do? Ý;-) Ý
I was a fair number of years older and worked as a Host in a Japanese Host Club for a couple of years, when I still had somewhat of a body and a better personality than I do now but, had I started doing that 10, 15, 20 years earlier what would I be doing now? ÝWho's to say, but I can guarentee it would have been a tough choice!!!! Ý A mile walking in their shoes would be very enlightening although without doing that AND understanding where their shoes have been and where they are likely to or can go, investing is as likely to cause as much emotional grief as investing in a questionable/totally unknown stock market is likely to cause financial grief.
PackRipper - "it might be best to look in the mirror and ask yourself if you're really a knight in shining armour. Ý If you don't have the resources, then all you're going to do is jump into the same pit and tread water with her."
Or worse, she moves on, or already has other sponsors while "you" slowly sink below the surface. ÝSomething I've suggested to others, no matter what, never give more than you can afford to throw away and never miss.
Another worse yet, the woman is sponsored for a period of time but the sponsorship dwindles away or dies before the woman has had a chance to get on her own two feet and she has lost a good portion of her earning capability due to her age.
Dave - "I was satisfied with all the cheap f_cks"
Sorry Dave, I somehow don't believe that was your primary motivation.
MrJoe - "enjoying the fruits of good karma"
To know and understand the true meaning and implications of Kharma,,,, Many people on various Thai boards use basic Buddhist terms but many do not truly understand them, to better understand them is to better understand Thai culture. ÝYour mentioning about the virtue of being good suggests to me that you have studied your life well. ÝTo know the world, easy, to know one's self????? ÝI know everything there is to know about everything, except, myself. Ý:-(
Dave - "an unexpected return comes back for a favour freely given. ÝNot a bad "life" philosophy."
If one keeps one's head and knows what one is getting into, what is there to lose, other than money? ÝBut, regarding, "So I had to say NO to that one.", may I hazard a guess that that was one of the most difficult decisions that you have had to make? ÝYeah, she seemed worth it but what about the "whole" package? ÝI've never been in that situation but if I had been would I have looked at the whole picture, I'd have to honestly say that I doubt it. ÝPossibly helping her would have actually been counter-productive as whe may have felt guilty about your helping her only helping her family and not changing a thing. ÝFood for thought!!!! ÝWho will benefit from money given and will it change anything?
Bigin - "My reg. and I have been through all those same conversations. I'm no buisness man on any professional level, but not completely stupid either. In other words, "I dont fail to plan." It was more so, for me to have some kind of buisness in LOS at the time than it was for her to escape."
I DO fail to plan. Ý:-( ÝBusiness in LOS, here or anywhere, all I know is I can earn money now and at least for a number of years to come. ÝAll I/we think about is our son. ÝHis road is stellar, if his mother and I can be together on a daily basis that is so much for the better but for right now, I don't think either one of us are looking much further than getting our son the education he needs and deserves. ÝWhat are one's goals and what are one's priorities? ÝNot that I am doing right but more so, I hope others will examine what they want and expect out of a given situation/relationship.
Well, I'm sorry that was so long and I'm wearing my asbestos underwear for the ADD crowd but I very much enjoy discussion and conversations, "Nothing kills a good discussion faster than agreement" Ý;-)
Ichiro (Japanese)
Craig (US)
Ichi (preferred 
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 7:54 pm on Jan. 10, 2003
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Ballsburstin
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BoomARang,
Re: "BallsBurstin - First of all, time spent in a Thai Jail and add to that being put there by people you trusted,,,, I can only say your "partner" is lucky to be still alive. ÝHad he been mine, pushing up daisies he would consider lucky. ÝAlso, moving to Japan? ÝI live in Yokohama, if you don't contact me at samurai_coder@hotmail.com, I will be disappointed." -- You have me confused with another member of the board.
In regard to your other commentary, I think you are not far off base (IMO). I do find your style a bit preachy, and "holier than thou," but at least you HAVE a style, so I am sure you will get some responses.
Those of us who are trying to put together a life with these Thai ladies are very aware of the East-meets-West issues, and the dualities that occur on both sides of the fence. Neither culture is superior (in my not-so-humble opinion) and it does take some research and some time on the ground to figure things out. You may be a little surprised by the depth of knowledge and understanding some of us bring to this particular issue. I agree with you that understanding a bit about Buddhism goes a long way to understanding many of the motivators in these ladies lives, but it goes well beyond Buddhism.
In Thailand, as you are probably aware, there are many aspects of Animism, folklore, ignorance, corruption, the confines of traditional roles, and stoicism that overlay the basic Buddhist beliefs of these people. So understanding Buddhism isn't the complete answer, just an important part of it. I also believe that actions do speak louder than words, and I move forward in my relationships with people based on their words AND their actions. I am a dreamer, but I am also a realist, and look for "the proof in the pudding." That is a Western, goal oriented approach, but it is not inconsistent with my current situation, nor that of my TGF (not a flame here, just a statement of what I'm up to -- this isn't the first time I've been involved with an Asian person in a long term relationship).
Well, enough of my rambling. Welcome to the forum, I'm sure your opinions will engender some lively discussions!
Cheers! Balls.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 10:35 pm on Jan. 10, 2003
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CalEden
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Wellcome to the forum. I found your post quite interesting. You will make brother cemore very happy your length of post rivals his. Any way wellcome.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:52 pm on Jan. 10, 2003
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Packripper
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Hi Ichi,
My eyes are hurting from the long post. Ý;)
Have to admit I just fast forwarded to the packripper section before I had to get some eye drops. Ý
Basically the two issues at hand are "getting into the biz" and "getting out of the biz." ÝHumans, when faced with hardship and desparation either scratch their way out or roll over and die (in this case, roll over and spread their legs). Ý Again, I believe it's work ethic, will, and self respect that will determine what path one will choose. Ý I've seen both types of people (scratch vs. roll over) come across desparate situations time and again and they take the same measures to get back on their feet, time and again. Ý There have been worse desperate situations in the world than a $10,000 debt (sure, a lot in the LOS) and zero in the bank and no resources but your wit (many with little formal education). Ý I've had relatives and acquaintences who have been at $2,000,000+ (sure, a lot in the LOS) in debt, almost nothing in the bank, and nothing but their wit (many with little or quite substandard education). Ý There's are multiple ways out of each situation, even though the light at the end of the title isn't in sight. Ý Ý
"Getting out." Ý Once you're "in" anything, it's hard to get out. ÝLet's say for any of us fellas... Ýsay if you're a drug dealer (who might end up just as dead as a hooker with HIV) and a nice successful girl wants you to "quit the life" and become a respectable super market cashier "for her." Ý'All you have to do' is give up the freedom of your current job and all the goodies that come with the higher income level. Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý
;)
Quote: from BoomARang on 8:54 am on Jan. 11, 2003
Hi All,
PackRipper - "it's a question of whether they really want to do it or no"
Yes yes yes yes!!! ÝThe question is, how does one know whether or not they really want to do it?
PackRipper - "If they had the work ethic, that could easily be made in well less than a year working the biz " Ý
Maybe yes, maybe no, who is to say how deep a given girl or family is in debt or what a given woman's situation is at a given time? ÝI've always moved up the ladder regarding my job position but there are very few times that it hasn't taken me a year or two to recover from the step up. Ý"She" may seem succesful and popular but one may only be looking at a very short time slice.
PackRipper - "what you need is some self respect and self discipline, young lass." Ý
True in "many" cases in the West but not so true in the East. ÝLife has a terrible habit of putting more pressure on one than one's own self respect and discipline can deal with. ÝAlong with that, what upbringing or training have most people had in times of extreme hardship? ÝI've had extensive physical and emotional defensive and offensive training so I can walk away from many situations that those without the same training would end up crippled by. Ý"Were I you, I would not do that." But, can there really be any comparison? Ý"All things being equal",,,, but what is "equal"?
Ichiro (Japanese)
Craig (US)
Ichi (preferred
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:41 am on Jan. 11, 2003
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pinga
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Ichi,
Just a comment on your recommendation towards enabling an INTRODUCTION SECTION.
In my personal opinion being anonimous is a must till I shake the hands of other members Ýeither at Bamboo bar or at the venue of any RT. Our identities and background Ýshould be classified since few of us work in LOS and our colleagues may bump into the forum by accident. If we are f_cked up by a colleague that won't be sanook....just my personal point of view.
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 8:38 am on Jan. 11, 2003
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Bigin
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BoomARang (aka) Ichi;
Saved the best for last huh bro!!! lol !!! I do relate with your feelings about providing for you boy. I've been in simular situations in my life. Welcome to the forum bro. BTW, you said you did'nt even know about the P4P deal in LOS till a year ago. So what's up now, do you partake? Also is that life style what drew you to this boared?
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 12:31 pm on Jan. 11, 2003
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BoomARang
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BallsBurstin - About my confusion with another board member, I appologize, to you and to the one whom I confused you with.
"holier than thou,"?
Well, but, I thought I was, no? Does that mean you aren't going to join the Church of Ichi? ;-) Seriously though, sorry, re-reading my post, I see one could take it that way. I didn't mean to imply that I was better than anyone else, just a possible different viewpoint.
"Neither culture is superior (in my not-so-humble opinion) and it does take some research and some time on the ground to figure things out."
Very true! There are negative and positives to any culture, I have but to look at the past 100 years of the Japanese society to see that. Basically, it all comes down to the individual we happen to be interacting with at the time.
However, the point I was trying to make though was that trying to judge one's actions based on one's locally acceptable thinking and actions does not always work. This was not directed towards you at all and was not even meant as a "condemnation" of anyone on this board in particular but more so for those who either happen upon this board, with no knowledge of Eastern culture.
Since learning about the P4P side of Thailand, I've come across a number of bewildered people who ended up in a world of hurt not really knowing why. They thought they had done nothing wrong, and they really hadn't based on their previous life experience and also, they really were good people with good hearts but somehow ended up coming out on the "wrong" side in certain situations.
"You may be a little surprised by the depth of knowledge and understanding some of us bring to this particular issue."
No, actually, I wouldn't be surprised nor am I having read so much of what has been written in the various threads of the various sections of this board. I've seen some amasing insight shown in the various threads that I have benefited from also and that I haven't seen on any other board.
But then again, I've also seen some people that don't really seem to have a clue other than the cost of S/T, L/T and various other parts of the GGG BG sub-culture. I guess I was just going off on the "I pay for it, I should be able to do anything I wan't." mentality.
"but it goes well beyond Buddhism."
Very true! Although a small understanding of the religious aspects can go a long way in seeing connections, or lack thereof, with regard to mass motivations. Of course everything usually breaks down on the individual level but in a Bar or AGoGo situation, some generalities can be applied.
"many aspects of Animism, folklore, ignorance, corruption, the confines of traditional roles, and stoicism that overlay the basic Buddhist beliefs of these people."
Add to that the regional differences to all that you mentioned plus the external influences of Lao, Kyhmer, Burmese and things can become a veriatable land mine field which I find myself still trying to negotiate my way through. ;-)
But, not all of the people who are here on this board, nor those that will come in the future can be expected to have the level of understanding that you show.
"I also believe that actions do speak louder than words"
"Violently" agree! In person, I'm one a very few words, in great contrast to my writing style. ;-) Words are easily forgotten or misunderstood, actions that effect people's lives are long remembered.
"That is a Western, goal oriented approach,"
I would beg to differ a bit. People in Eastern cultures may smile and nod their heads when a person says they will do something but that doesn't mean they actually believe it will be done until they see it for themselves.
Case in point, a number of women I know have sponsors, as well as a number of men that they "love", stacked up mainly because they have seen too many times where actions do not follow words. A given man may proclaim his love and even mean it but if another man comes along with a Visa or moves to the country to take care of her, usually they will go with someone for whom they have lesser feelings for simply because of the actions the particular man took. Of course there are those, which may even be somewhat of a majority, that simply stack men up simply for the money but that is not always the case.
"this isn't the first time I've been involved with an Asian person in a long term relationship"
I've become to understand that about you and it shows in the understanding you express in your writing. But again, I'm more concerned with those for whom their trip to The LOS, or any other place in Asia, is their first or have only Western expereinces to draw from.
"I'm sure your opinions will engender some lively discussions!"
That is one of my "goals". Although I will try to be less preachy in the future, if I can. ;-) And, thank you for your welome!
CalEden - "cmore very happy your length of post rivals his"
Oh oh, I feel a challenge coming on. ;-) Seriously though, I'll try to limit it to trying to capture the main points as efficiently as possible and I'm sure I'll settle down to a less verbose style in the near future but it was hard with it being my first post and feeling there to be so much to say. Thanks for the welcome!
Packripper - "I had to get some eye drops."
No Problem. I had to take the cast of my hands to type this reply so I know how you feel! ;-)
"Again, I believe it's work ethic, will, and self respect that will determine what path one will choose."
I would agree to a large extent although the question I would have would be where are most of the girls supposed to get their work ethic from? Most of them know how to take care of a home and a man EXTREMELY well, as we all know and which they more than likely learned from their mother but what do too many of them learn from the male members of their household and community? I'm not disagreeing with you in the least but instead offering the suggestion that maybe some of them could use an incentive to develop a work ethic.
That was the case with my girlfriend. She litterally didn't have a clue and had no ability to walk her way through making a plan for her future. Of course that doesn't explain the Uni-Girls who come from middle to upper class homes and still go into the Biz but I think there are a percentage of women who just need a guiding and sometimes helping hand.
"There's are multiple ways out of each situation, even though the light at the end of the title isn't in sight."
Along with the previous you wrote on this, deffinitely agree! But then again considering the spectrum from one end to the other, there are those that are totally lost and even with help, will never see the surface but there are also those in the middle somewhere that may only need a lift up by their bootstraps and shown a way to get themselves out of the trench. But, it all comes down to the individual, not only the one on the needing side but also the one on the helping side.
Some guys pay what is virtually sexual rent money while others pay no support other than education money and others still that do nothing at all. It could probably be said that none of them would help in a given situation or that in another given situation one might work while another might just make things worse. It all comes down to the one, or two people involved and it is a case by case basis.
I not only worked two jobs but also used student loans to get my thick skull through education. Without the student loans, I never would have made it. Others did and others didn't even make it with what I had, there is a spectrum.
"'All you have to do' is give up the freedom of your current job and all the goodies that come with the higher income level."
I don't know if you wrote that in jest or not but I think that seriously it is a very good point! The question then becomes one of what are the "goodies" of getting out of the Biz. Sure, self respect is a big one, especially since a fair number of the womens' families, and probably most of their children, don't know what it is they are doing but on the other side, I've seen Thai driving BMWs that live in a shoe box. I think the important point is that if one is looking for someone to have a relationship or is going to sponsor in an attempt to improve their life, one needs to look very carefully as to what motivates, or could motivate the given woman.
In the end, we may never agree although that is not such a bad thing. What works for you, works for you, what worked for me, although it hasn't/doesn't always, works for me, at least this time.
Pinga - No problem. It was just an idea. I wasn't thinking people had to get as detailed in their introduction so as to give their identity away, in fact if you and I were sitting in the same bar and were the only two in there, I guarentee that you would not know who I was from my introduction to myself, unless I happened to have my laptop at the bar and were writing posts. ;-) But again, no problem.
Bigin - "Saved the best for last huh bro!!!"
Of course!
"BTW, you said you did'nt even know about the P4P deal in LOS till a year ago. So what's up now, do you partake? Also is that life style what drew you to this board?"
Good question! As far as partaking, I have in the past, although not in Thailand, but usually not when I am in a relationship. Not that I have anything against it as I feel there is a very needed and important place for Public Women in society. I think it could easily be argued that some marriages have lasted simply because the outlet was there.
It is just that I have a VERY difficult time separating the emotions with the physical. I know I shouldn't considering my upbringing but I just do. I sort of envy guys that can enjoy the Sanuk without getting emotionally involved, its just that I can't, for some reason.
It wasn't really the lifestyle from the man's point of view that drew me to the board but more so from the woman's side. I don't exactly know what that means although I do know it does NOT mean that I am going to get hypocritical on you guys but I do know I don't have much sympathy for guys that get caught out. Discretion is the better part of valor, and also a good way to keep from feeding the ducks! ;-)
I guess one could say it is the psychology of the situation that is what attracts me. One last thing though, my girlfriend has 4 sisters, 3 of whom are married to Farang so I guess one could say I am also here for the relationship aspect of things, not only the Farang husband / Thai wife or boyfriend/girlfriend or even Punter and GGG or BG.
In closing, I thank you all for your patience in reading what I wrote and taking the time to provide such welome feedback! I didn't come here to teach but more so to share and learn.
Ichi
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 7:26 pm on Jan. 11, 2003
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