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Hermanolobo
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The Conclusion is after the X's at the bottom of the page.
Mr. And Mrs. Stick To The Rescue!
If one decides that they want to put a ring on their Thai girl’s finger, there is a certain protocol that is usually followed that starts well before the wedding day. In fact it happens well before the engagement. The traditional approach would see the boy go to the girl’s parents’ house to negotiate the engagement and wedding gift (dowry is not really the right word, rather engagement gifts perhaps being more accurate).
Different families handle it differently. Sometimes there is an engagement ceremony held months before the wedding itself, whereas others do both the engagement and wedding ceremony on the same day. Generally speaking, at the engagement ceremony the guy will give some gold, usually a chain and also a diamond engagement ring. The ring is for the fiancée and the gold is usually for her too, though sometimes it is retained by her parents. Then at the time of the wedding, a dowry is often paid, and it will be put on display for all to see. Exactly what happens to the dowry after the wedding is something for another column.
So before the engagement ceremony itself, the guy will go to the parents' house and ask for permission to marry her. It is at this point that there is a negotiation for exactly what will make up the dowry / engagement gifts.
Last weekend I was contacted by a reader of this website who was caught in a bit of a bind. It was Saturday lunch time and he was having this very pre-engagement meeting and negotiation with the family of the girl he was looking at marrying at 7:00 PM that evening. As he did not have any real Thai friends, especially seniors of some social status, he had had to organise someone to negotiate on his behalf. He had hired a Thai woman to help him but the appointment time had been changed and she was unable to assist. So, when in a bind in Bangkok, who do you turn to? Stickman, of course!
Truth be told, I did not feel comfortable getting involved in something like this. The language would not be a problem, but it really should be a Thai person there to help, someone familiar with both the process itself, and the people there. But this guy was desperate. I ran the situation by the Mrs. to see if she was interested in doing it. She agreed, on the understanding that she would be happy to deal with the language and translation side of it, but was not confident about the general format of the negotiation. Somewhat reluctantly she agreed to help.
Off we trotted to meet said gentleman, to get a feel for him, to find out about the whole situation and agree on what our relationship with him was before the negotiation process itself commenced.
He was a computer professional with a Western salary, something he was not shy to tell us. Everything about this guy oozed money. He was well-dressed, well groomed and despite being in his 40s, you knew that women would find him handsome. Frankly, he would be an extremely good catch for a Thai woman. But I couldn't help get the feeling that he had more money than sense.
After a bit of chit chat, he filled in the gaps. He had met this particular lady at CM2 Disco a couple of months back. Things had moved quickly and she had been living with him for the past two months with him "looking after her". She did not work. She felt that they should take the relationship to the next level if he really loved her. Obviously he had not been looking at marriage just yet, but things had somehow got to the point where he was meeting the parents for the pre-engagement negotiations.
The story we concocted was that the two of us had worked together some time ago and that I was there for moral support. We could not say that we were close friends as she had met most of his friends already. So, with the story straightened out as best we could in such a short amount of time, we then headed across town to meet her and her family.
The meeting was scheduled early evening at a restaurant in a large suburban shopping centre. By the time we got there, they had already ordered a huge amount of food and our arrival was greeted with what I felt was a muted welcome, them seemingly more concerned about scoffing down the food than making introductions.
A bunch of family members were present, all Bangkok residents, but natives of one of the far flung Isaan provinces. The senior family members were pleasant people, quiet, but rugged looking, the sort of people who you know hadn't had the easiest of lives, but whose instincts were first and foremost, to smile.
After ordering several dishes ourselves and quickly polishing them off, one member of the family asked Mrs. Stick if we were ready to commence the discussions. Still no introductions had been made. A woman was pushed to the front and surprisingly to me, the parents took a back seat, not saying anything. It turned out that this woman was not even a family member, but a woman who used to be their neighbour. She was someone who they felt knew more about such things than them, yet someone they trusted.
Going straight to the main event, they laid their cards out on the table. If he wanted to marry her, they required 500,000 baht to be paid at the engagement ceremony which itself should be held as soon as possible, within the next week preferably. On top of this, he would also have to give 10 baht of gold (gold currently retails for 9,200 baht per 1 baht unit of weight), and a 1 carat gold ring (this would typically cost 150,000 - 200,000 baht). That was just the start of it. At the wedding there would be another payment of cash given that must exceed the amount given at the engagement, but would not exceed one million baht. There would be another 10 baht gold. Adding it all up, Loverboy was looking at an outlay at the engagement ceremony and marriage ceremony combined of close to 2,000,000 baht.
To their credit, they were straight up and said that not a single baht would be returned to him. The first 500,000 baht given at the engagement ceremony would be given to the mother and father “as they deserve it because they are poor”. Interesting logic, that. The next payment made at the wedding ceremony would be deposited into his fiancée's bank account for her to use as she pleases, and it would provide a backup for her should he decide to leave her.
I couldn't help but notice that our friend to be married had suddenly developed this mysterious twitch and was suddenly a lot less comfortable than he had been. He then revealed to me that the figures that had been mentioned earlier that very same day totaled a mere 700,000 baht, but had now close to tripled!
Now dear readers, if these figures sound a bit on the high side to you, then you would be absolutely right. Just going off on a tangent briefly, middle class city girls would usually command a dowry of 100,000 – 200,000 baht with gold and a ring pushing the total closer to an effective outlay for the groom to be of 150,000 - 250,000 baht.
It was at this point that Loverboy asked me just how the "valuation system" works. I told him that a number of factors came into it such as the social standing of the girl and her family, her education, her sexual history (primarily whether she was a virgin or not), amongst other things. A nice guy, but somewhat in the dark – he had only known this girl for 2 months. He didn't need to be an expert on all things Thai to realise that these numbers were unrealistically high.
I confirmed for him that these figures were far, far too much and that he was being had. He didn't come back with a counter offer but asked just how this figure was reached, to which the response was, "take it or leave it".
He then asked me if we could bring up the fact that he had met her in a bar and she had slept with numerous other guys and that frankly she shouldn't command such a high price. Mrs. Stick frowned and said that while what he said was correct, we could hardly say that. If we did, the whole negotiation process would break down amidst huge loss of face.
He made a counter offer by saying that he would be footing the bill for her education and that that would cost him at least 200,000 baht. He rightfully said that if she was not married then it would be the parents who would have to foot the bill for this. Total disinterest from them. "Whether she is educated or not is your business, not ours", they said, which was all I needed to hear to know that they didn't care about her at all, but simply wanted his money.
They then mentioned another condition which totally threw me. The engagement ceremony needs to be as soon as possible, preferably the following week, and then he would not be able to see her until the wedding, the date for which they would set when they were good and ready. Warning bells were going off left, right and centre. Can you spell S-C-A-M?
But things were to get worse. Much, much worse.
He kept politely coming back with the comments that the figures were on the high side and Mrs. Stick translated this time and time again. They kept coming back with the logic that if he was sincere, he would give as much as he could, a situation exacerbated by the fact that he had been giving her 50,000 baht a month while she was living with him, and he had foolishly disclosed his astronomical salary to her. They said that they were showing their sincerity by even entering into this negotiation and for him to be sincere, he had to offer more money, such a fee being commensurate with her "worth", they argued. Counter arguments were made but they simply cast these aside and said that they showed a lack of sincerity on his part.
This was not a negotiation. It was quite simply a take it or leave it deal.
It was at this point that the spokeswoman for the family leaned closer to Mrs. Stick and in a hushed tone, not hushed enough however, said that “this girl has woman’s problems and she is unable to have children, but whatever you do, do not tell him that!” I shook my head in bewilderment. Did I hear that right? My face must have become contorted because she then looked at me and frowned. I could see her thinking, "Did the farang understand that?" Here she was purportedly extolling the virtues of being sincere and doing the right thing and then she whispers to the translator that the girl who is being auctioned off is in fact spoiled goods!
It was obvious that agreement could not be reached at that point in time and the negotiations were paused with our friend saying that he would think about things and get back to them. The spokeswoman then said that he was not allowed to see his girlfriend until he had agreed to the terms and if he did not agree to them, he could never see her again!
Before this part was translated I told him to settle the bill immediately and go outside explaining that I had something very important to tell him. The family scurried off quickly, and I took him outside and told him what had been said. He was furious and it seemed to take all the control that he could muster to prevent him from going into a rage.
We piled into a taxi and heading back into town, both the Mrs. and I gave him our thoughts on the complete lack of sincerity of the family and how their motivations were clearly financially motivated. We told him how insincere they had been, how the numbers they were talking about were completely unrealistic and how quite frankly, marrying into a family like this would be a nightmare. He agreed and said that he intended to go out and get drunk.
He called me the next day and said that he had packed up all of her things which had been at his apartment in preparation of her coming to collect them. It was over he said. Wise.
There were many issues that came out from this most intriguing few hours.
I guess I should not find it surprising the way the family automatically assumed that another Thai, Mrs. Stick, would pull the wool over a farang’s eyes, even though she was there to represent him.
When a farang is involved the amounts talked about become not just silly, but totally outrageous. I was looking at this woman sitting opposite and boiling inside. Maintaining composure was difficult because the one thing that really upsets me is people who are clearly bullshitting but maintain an angelic look and purport complete innocence. When she started talking about the girl as some sort of princess and not the freelancing slag that she was, I could feel my blood boil.
A large sin sot / dowry in some ways gives a woman an INCENTIVE TO LEAVE THE MARRIAGE. In the old days, a woman stayed with a man because she had to. She would not be able to survive without him and no-one would want to marry someone who had already been married. This is no longer the case and divorced Thai women often remarry these days.
The amount of bullshit, and complete lack of sincerity from the family was disturbing. I have never seen anything quite like it and was appalled that people could lie so terribly at a time when people are supposed to be happy and joyful.
Paying a dowry is one thing, but the whole negotiation process to me was just disgusting and that you cannot actually come out and say things which are relevant to the negotiation is just ridiculous. To me it is a fundamentally flawed process.
Obviously when discussed by senior Thais who have been through such before, it would likely be a much smoother process. But my impression of it all was that I was very happy I never had to go through anything like that.
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He emailed me 4 days later and said that he was going to marry her.
  
It is all copyright Stickman (c) 2005.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:46 am on Oct. 19, 2005
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China Sailor
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The only reply to this is a quote from PT Barnum:
"There is a Sucker born every minute."
Nuff said....
BTW: Armageddon's comin' to a theartre near you!
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 6:46 am on Oct. 19, 2005
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silentbob1234
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What a chump. Goes to show that a guy having a shitload of cash doesn't necessarily mean that he is full of smarts.
...are you gettin' it? - Armageddon it!
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:19 pm on Oct. 19, 2005
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bkkfella
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Dad...... How did you get to be so rich ??
Well son, I just bought this little gadget for $1 and I turned around and sold it for $3.
It is just amazing how much money you can make with a 50% markup.
Cheers
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 6:25 pm on Oct. 19, 2005
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ColoradoGuy
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Sounds like his little Thai hottie is just fine. 
If the story is true, to her I say "good for you", to him I say "Som num naa!"
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 7:02 pm on Oct. 19, 2005
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modusoperandi
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"He had met this particular lady at CM2 Disco a couple of months back."
That right there should have been the deal breaker.
edit:
I'm laughing but also feeling sorry for this guy at the same time. It's amazing how easily guys are duped when you just put them in a different culture with slightly different rules. You have to give the thai side credit though. They played uncompromising hardball in the "dupe the farang" game and it paid out big time.
2 million baht up front? Sorry the pussy is never that good.
I can't wait to see how out of control she is when she reaches the western world. She'll be spending it all on gaudy jewelry, designer clothes, and probably multiple "part time" boyfriends.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 7:44 pm on Oct. 19, 2005
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mzeng
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you have to be sh!tting me!
please please please tell me this story is not real
if it's real can someone pass me this guy's phone number? I got a planet I would like to sell him
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:06 pm on Oct. 19, 2005
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ftumch
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I wonder who the girl is? Many of us on this forum frequent CM2 and I guess more than one of us might have done her. Be interesting to find out.
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:24 pm on Oct. 19, 2005
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Hermanolobo
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Quote: from mzeng on 10:34 am on Oct. 20, 2005
you have to be sh!tting me!
please please please tell me this story is not real
if it's real can someone pass me this guy's phone number? I got a planet I would like to sell him
I would be very surprised if Stickman is making it up ?
I know he is not popular in a lot of quarters for telling it like it is but he seems an OK bloke to me.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 1:51 am on Oct. 20, 2005
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DaffyDuck
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While I agree with Mrs. Stick regarding the faceloss value of bringing up the fact that the girl is a freelancing slag, I do believe that the 'confidential whispering' moment would have been the right time to bring up the fact that the girl's 'woman problems' may be due to her pussy being the local tollway -- and that alone reduces her worth significantly.
I'd bet 100,000 Baht that the 'friendly neighbor' was going to get a heavy cut of the take herself.
Either way, I admire Stick's restraint in that situation - and I'll echo ColoradoGuy's statements to the guy.
What a sucker that guy is... Not untypical for the computer field, though, I hear.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 5:42 am on Oct. 20, 2005
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