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X
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Arcadius...
Surely all your TG is saying is: 1) no, she is not a lesbian because the feminine holds no sexual attraction for her, and 2) a tom is not a man, but a woman presenting as such. De facto (s)he falls into neither category.
Isnít that the same as a man saying ìI am not a gay man or a bisexual man, yes I love this other man, but that other man is pretty effeminate, so I am not gayî
I still have more trouble understanding this ìgirl falls for butch lesbian but doesnít define herself as lesbian or biî than I do understanding straight guys falling for post-op LBs. If she is a convincing enough LB then he is still 100% straight in my book.
A butch lesbian just doesnít have the male equipment, whereas a post-op LB can be practically indistinguishable from a ërealí woman. But a butch lesbian is miles removed from a ërealí man. Sure the butch lesbian might have predominantly male mannerisms, butÖ. ??? geez what am I trying to say??
OK back to Smegís girlÖ the feminine MUST hold some attraction for herÖ otherwise she wouldnít be sleeping with a woman, albeit a pretty butch woman. Sure, I can understand some lesbians being attracted to only the butch type women, or only the femme type women ñ but I still class that type of woman as either ìlesbianî or ìbiî. Same with gay or bi blokes attracted to the femini-type gay men.
I think this is totally different than the straight guy falling for the post-op LB. The post op LB is for all intents and purposes a woman. Itís not as though Smegís girlís butch girlfriend has had a sex-change op and had a penis& balls added or her boobs removed. Then it would be different IMO.
Maybe Smeg's girl is like "bi at the moment only due to circumstances" kinda thing. Like a straight man locked in a male jail for years will have sex with another man, not because he is gay, but because he has little choice.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:05 am on July 8, 2003
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Arramsey
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It looks to me that all of us have assumed that the relationship between this girl and the Tomboy is a SEXUAL relationship .
I am not sure whether even Smegma can clarify this - but if he says it is a sexual relationship then the rest of my post stands cancelled .
However if even Smegma cannot confidently say that the relationship is sexual - then I think that one explanation could be that this is a platonic relationship which the girl has developed in order to :-
- satisfy her mother that she is not with a male .
- satisfy her desire to have a partner who looks and acts like a male but is not one .
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 9:38 am on July 8, 2003
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X
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yep Arramsey, you're right... I was definitely assuming the realtionship was sexual.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:41 am on July 8, 2003
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Smegma
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I didn't ask her for the details on what they do and what they don't. But she calls the tom her "fend"
In the west if a 13 year old girl has a 15 year old bf, and they love each other and have an exclusive relationship, all other boys are screwed when it comes to getting any from the girl, regardless of the girl and the boy not having gone round the plate. All other boys would have to wait until they break up before they have any real chance.
As long as they do things with each other that they do not do with others, I do not think the level of sexuality matters.
In my time 20 years ago, the girl became first my GF then we had sex. Ok, now it is different in most places, but good girls here still want to feel the guy is their BF before they go and have sex with him (when and if they do).
Am I addressing your question Arramsey? I am not sure.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 9:49 am on July 8, 2003
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Arcadius
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X
I still have more trouble understanding this "girl falls for butch lesbian but doesn't define herself as lesbian or bi"; than I do understanding straight guys falling for post-op LBs. If she is a convincing enough LB then he is still 100% straight in my book
This is in danger of becoming a bit like a theological dispute about the human and divine natures of Christ, but I'll give it a stab.
1) I take it as axiomatic that Thai LBs and toms are NOT equivalent to effeminate gays or butch lesbians in the West. They cross the gender divide far more convincingly. Guys who never have the slightest problem with attraction to gays back home get into difficulties over LBs in LOS.
2) I define sexuality simply in terms of desire - something which happens at the level of instinct. A guy sexually attracted to other guys is no less homosexual just because he isn't practicing. It follows that:
3) The question of equipment (pre-op or post-op LB) is irrelevant. You are sexually attracted to 'her' or you aren't. If you are, this will almost certainly kick in before you have any idea whether 'she' has a dick or not, and very possibly while you are under the mistaken impression that she is a woman. I would say this attraction is entirely heterosexual in nature.
4) In the case of a pre-op LB, you will certainly discover your mistake. As we discussed at length on the 'would you f_ck a LB?' thread, some guys will just shrug and go ahead, others will hurriedly back out. The issue of sexual attraction is common to both, but in the case of the backers-out, their instinct is now being overriden by the cognitive and inhibition functions of the brain.
I contend that this is not a difference between heterosexuals and bisexuals, but between heterosexuals who have hang-ups about homosexuality and those who do not. By analogy, I would say exactly the same applies to hetrosexual women in relation to toms.
Ergo, I think Smeg's TG is dead right in what she says.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 10:39 am on July 8, 2003
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Kaymanx
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Quote: from Arcadius on 10:39 pm on July 8, 2003
X
The question of equipment (pre-op or post-op LB) is irrelevant. You are sexually attracted to 'her' or you aren't. If you are, this will almost certainly kick in before you have any idea whether 'she' has a dick or not, and very possibly while you are under the mistaken impression that she is a woman. I would say this attraction is entirely heterosexual in nature.
I contend that this is not a difference between heterosexuals and bisexuals, but between heterosexuals who have hang-ups about homosexuality and those who do not. By analogy, I would say exactly the same applies to hetrosexual women in relation to toms.
I agree with Arcadius' reasoning. It brings to mind a situation I was in at a bar on Soi Cowboy. After almost an hour of companionship with a strikingly beautiful girl during which time she had worked up my passions, I struck up a deal with her to go out with me after closing hours. She agreed, and then we got more intimate right there on the bar couch. And it wwas during further exploration that I began to develop this feeling that maybe I was having a LB here. So I asked her, 'what do you have down there?' And instead of answering me she asked "Do you like me ?" I wanted her answer first, but she wanted mine before that. "Do you like me ?" she persisted, and I nodded. "Would you still like me if I am LB?" she asked. And I found myself saying yes. Honestly yes. She was THAT lovely. Maybe she felt happy with my answer. Later that night she proved to be one of the finest companions I have had in BKK. And never once I felt I was with a male despite that she had male equipment.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 1:21 pm on July 8, 2003
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X
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Kaymanx and Arcadius... you two are making my head hurt. lol. This whole thread is making my head hurt. (in a good way! it's making me think, reallllly think, and I do like that.)
Maybe it's because I have never met or even seen a butch lesbian who remotely resembles a real man... and I don't know how far sex-change ops go in the female-to-male variety, but when I think of a butch lesbian I basically think of a very macho woman, but still a woman (a bit like Julian Clarey is a very efeminate man - but no way is he a woman, irrespective of the lip gloss and mascara). However, I have seen guys at various stages of the man-to-woman transformations who have been gorgeous looking women.
Kaymanx -- cool response on your part to the LB.
Arcadius -- one thing you say surprises me.
"I take it as axiomatic that Thai LBs and toms are NOT equivalent to effeminate gays or butch lesbians in the West. They cross the gender divide far more convincingly. Guys who never have the slightest problem with attraction to gays back home get into difficulties over LBs in LOS."
I totally agree that Thai men make the transition to LB in a more easily convincing way than western men. Possibly because of their smaller more petite stature. So I would have thought that with the transition of female-to-male that western women would have had the edge here because they are bigger built. Then again I don't think I have ever laid eyes on a Thai tomboy, so I really have no idea.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 3:06 pm on July 8, 2003
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haam sup
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Much too much emphasis on the black/white, gay/straight categorization.
IMHO, this thread makes a case for a continuum of sexual orientation, and for the disregard of gender in the 'attractiveness scale'.
If you get right down to it, different people fit in different areas of the stereotypical male/female attitude/behavior range.
So, if a guy is attracted to a pre-op katoey, but not to a masculine gay man, is he 'gay'? Does it matter? At some point in the range defined by those two extremes, acculturation will begin to lessen the desire, i.e., if it is an OBVIOUS katoey, the guy might be LESS attracted...though the 'equipment' is the same.
I'm on a 'rational thinking' binge today, but it seems to me that the 'sex with anything other than a REAL woman means you're gay' crowd is terribly stuck on a rigid, dogmatic set of rules, that inevitably leads to conflicts. Sometimes these conflicts are internal, and acted out as violent homophobia. Very bad stuff, leading to hate crimes, etc. Other times, it just prevents people from seeing others as human. Not so good, either.
Kaymanx and Arcadius have stated it quite succinctly: if you like someone, it makes NO difference. Accept your own feelings, and enjoy it.
As for the original question, the Dee who takes refuge in the arms of a Tom, until she is ready for a 'man', it's just rationalization as protection from societal pressure.
She is what she is: another human, biologically female, but able to derive the comfort she needs from another biological female, who is able to provide it, and has an appearance/emotional presense that fills the bill.
Finally, if we allow the notion that 'transgendered' people are really men trapped in women's bodies, and vice versa, then, except for equipment, their admirers can justify the position that they are in a 'heterosexual' relationship...because from a societal point of view, they feel it's necessary. Thais have their OWN set of dogma to live with...
This is a VERY interesting thread, as I know MANY such couples here in the US...
I hope my post wasn't too muddled...
haam sup
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:23 pm on July 8, 2003
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Tsonoqua
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Arcadius:
_____________________________________________
2) I define sexuality simply in terms of desire - something which happens at the level of instinct. A guy sexually attracted to other guys is no less homosexual just because he isn't practicing. It follows that:
_____________________________________________
I find it very interesting that a free thinker such as yourself has reinforced the most basic of conservative Christian dogma - that having lust in your heart is the same as having sex.
I'll have to e-mail Jerry Falwell and let him know.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 7:25 pm on July 8, 2003
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Smegma
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That is the most basic conservative Christina dogma? WOW! Call the theologicians and let them know.
I for one thought there were others more basic dogmas like the holy spirit making the Virgin pregnant for one. And many others, but I know shit.
BTW, I agree with haam sup in his basic concept.
I think that Tsonoqua may be confused with the concept that enjoyment coming from thinking of a sinful act is also a sin -though lesser- than the sin itself. This so called basic Christian principle is aplied to many other areas, not only sex: deriving pleasure from thinking of killing someone is also a sin, etc....
Back to topic, I think the core of the issue here is one person's own labeling actions and thoughts versus the labeling given by others.
I found interesting the logic applied by the girl here. She is happy with it. And she has no doubts. She is happy with her own logic -whatever that logicx may look to us. And what about us? Well, we have been discussing it already for a couple of days and a few pages here. Some of us have expanded our views as a result.
Coming back to how different people may seem the same actions, is again necessary to look as how we define things. For example what is kinky? What may be kinky to one is not to others. Remember the saying: "Don't worry, it only seems kinky the first time" 
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 1:36 am on July 9, 2003
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