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Chompoo
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I should have been clearer that while I have a strict code of ethics in my head, I don't expect real people to live up to it (and I don't always do so myself). I really am not going to reprimand someone in real life for conspiring with a BG to meet after work and avoid the BF.
MrJoe, where I think we're talking at cross purposes is that I consider the girls in My Bar to work for me with an exclusive contract. That's the rule; they don't make outside dates or they don't work for me. Using a word like "ownership" is misleading; it is just a contract that the girls and I have made. I may also put in the contract that the girls can't ride motorcycles, as I don't want them getting scarred up. There are certain things that are offensive to put in such a contract (e.g. I couldn't say that my girls can't date black men), but many jobs limit what people can do outside regular work hours and if there is a real reason why it affect the job (and in this case there is) then there's no problem with it.
If girls feel the need to freelance after work then they can work at a bar that allows this. If enough bars have better contracts than mine, maybe I'll have to relax this rule. The point is that it is a valid business decision for me to make or not make as I see fit and customers and girls who contravene this rule are dishonest and unethical.
Your cook analogy is not really valid, but if I wanted to put a line in the contract with my cook that she could not perform any outside professional cooking duties then it is unethical for her to break that. If, for example, the cook was a really famous cook who I was paying an exorbitant salary, then it would dilute the value of her to my restaurant if she was offering her services outside (which is why I might want that line in the contract). The point is that the rule is clear up front and there is no coercion on my part to get the cook to agree to it. In 99.9% of the cases what you say wouldn't be a problem because it doesn't really affect the business, the cooks are not outside representatives of restaurant, and there is no prior agreement.
A more valid analogy would be if I ran a catering service. You interview one of my bartenders for the job (or perhaps you hire him once) and like him. Now the two of you agree that he will provide service at future parties and cut me out. I would fire his ass very quickly. I would even have a rule that said he couldn't provide outside bartending services, because I could never tell which customers he met through me and which he didn't. If he wants to give puppet shows or be a male stripper (or even nude puppet shows) outside work hours that's up to him.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 3:20 am on Dec. 19, 2002
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Chompoo
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Now I must say that I've actually been bit by this policy before. Last year a friend of mine and I were in Soi Cowboy when the bars closed. We found ourselves outside of Long Gun and while we weren't interesting in taking home any of the girls that night (well, I wasn't) we weren't ready to go to sleep yet and just wanted to hang out. I tried to get two LG girls to eat with us and chat for a while, but they insisted on the barfine. I was ready to give them 400B each just to hang out with us, but couldn't justify giving it to the bar. So we were at an impasse and everyone lost out.
However, I think that is the exception to the rule and that in most cases the rule makes sense and creating a perfect rule that works in all cases is impossible.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 3:28 am on Dec. 19, 2002
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MrJoe
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Again, I don't really disagree with anything you've said.
BTW I wasn't trying to mislead by my use of the word "ownership"; I did say it was too close to it for me -- I didn't say it was the same thing.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 3:42 am on Dec. 19, 2002
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Smegma
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Quote: from MrJoe on 3:49 pm on Dec. 19, 2002
Feel free to use it without attribution.  But I differ that it is similar to the situation you describe.
A cop is and should be held to a higher standard of conduct when it comes to fulfilling his duty than I am in my nightlife activities. He takes an oath to uphold the law and has a moral obligation to do so. His failure to is on a whole, detrimental to society. I don't think my failing to pay a BF would be.
MRJoe MrJoe MrJoe ..... I agree with you on the fundamentals about what you say above. ÝAnd never intended to past judgement with my comment on the BF thing. I just like what you said. It was in jest that I brought the police story. I mentioned it only because of the underlying message (of your short sentence that I quoted) sounded Ýsomehow similar ...... like kind of when you argue with the girl and when you think you already convinced her with your superb reasoning logic she says "....mmmm Ýok, but i still want it this way" Ý
And alternative elegant -so I thought- Ýway to say something similar, is by saying what I did say the day I met my then soon to be father-in-law (now ex-father-in-law  ) at the dining table, when I said to him as a reply to him telling me what he thought I should be doing in regards to ...(nah this is not relevant to the story) Ý"I respect your opinion, but I do not share it." ÝI thought it was a cool and respectful thing to say when in disagreement. Well, there was silence at the table and my girlfriend gave me the biggest kick I ever got under a table. Moral of the history, the rules of engagement with in-laws are very different from what they are in daily interaction with other people.
As for the actual issue of the BF, I will reread and post again
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 4:13 am on Dec. 19, 2002
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MrJoe
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Smegma Smegma Smegma,
Thanks for clearing that up. I just didn't like the comparison to a cop abusing his authority. Couldn't tell if it was meant to imply something negative or not but I wasn't that worried. Just thought I'd comment on the difference.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 4:33 am on Dec. 19, 2002
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Smegma
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Any ethics discussion is always tricky. The reason most of the time is because often there is no clear right / wrong answer.
In this case, I would say only:
* If the parties agreed to conduct a transaction, my guess is that they should be ok with it. ÝI read years ago when I first come to Asia a piece of advice saying not to get upset if I was ask for too high a price. Just to negotiate but not to get upset. ÝThe guy asking US$100 for something worth US$1 is not insulting me but just fishing for money. It is up to me to pay happily 100 or negotiate. No point getting upset. ÝGood advice. If the transaction takes place as agreed, parties should have no problem. ÝIn this case, the girl can at any moment while still at the bar decide go with the other guy who is willing to pay the BF as opposed to wait 5 more minutes. Each makes his/her own decission and then has to live with its consequences -sometimes good sometimes bad.
* Drawing on the example of the catering service and the employee being fired .... I would say, yes, do it, if you have the rule and he/she gets caught do it. ÝThis reminds me of the story of the passenger on a bus that goes to the driver
P:Can I smoke Ý
D:Read the sign 'no smoking'
P:But there is a bunch of people in the back smoking' Ý
D:They didnt ask me first. Ý
Issue here is how strong policing, enforcing, getting caught and hosnesty come into play. ÝAnother example: bringing cuban cigars into the USA. Once going from Bahamas to Miami, customs asked me specifically if I had Cuban cigars. I said: Yes, I have cigars, I am not sure if they are Cubans, but I certainly hope they are or else I was ripped off by the shop who sold them to me. ÝThe officer smiled, asked me how many I had. I said 2 boxes and he let me go happy with my cigars -which were Cuban btw. ÝSame story repeated another time, but the question was more general, like "do you have anything that maybe you hope I do not find if I search your luggage" again I replied "yes, all my cuban cigars" "how many?" Ý"2 boxes" Ý"go" Ý Sometimes those who are punished are the ones caught in the act because it is obvious they were trying to "beat" the system, and were stupid enough to get caught.
* We probably have spent more time here talking about this than the time the whole of the people at the bars have spent thinking about it. ÝThey would probably say "you think too much" Ý(I am sure you guys have heard this many times)
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:46 am on Dec. 19, 2002
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MrJoe
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I couldn't even begin to estimate how many times I've heard it. Those who said it were undoubtedly right.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:57 am on Dec. 19, 2002
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cmore
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I agree with Mr. Joe about not waiting until 2 am to find someone for LT (or even ST). To me that's something you do if all you're interested in is sex. After all everything's pretty much closed so what else is there to do. For me, I would prefer to BF someone say around 9 or 10 and go do something fun like dancing or listen to some good music (Rock, Thai, or whatever) and it's always a good idea to suggest that she pick the activity. Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý If all you're interested in is sex then what is the point of looking for it in a venue that you know will charge you a BF in order for the lady to leave with you? The only reason I can see is because it's some kind of status thing. I bagged a bar girl or I bagged a gogo dancer. If that's the motivation then try Soi 7 beer garden or Thermae. If you're looking for ladies in the 8-10 category then try CM2 or Hollywood or Dance Fever. I'm sure that many gogo dancers can be found in any of the above freelancing on their night off from the bar. Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý The only other motivations I can think of is if you also want to see a sex show and I guess the gogo bars are definitely the place to go for that. There is also the safety factor where by choosing someone that works in a bar you know where to find them again in case something happens such as she rips you off. Also if all you're looking for is sex then why wait until 2 am for it. With ladies working freelance you can find them pretty much anytime, day or night. Are gogo dancers so much hotter then the ladies that you'll find in CM2 Ýor Hollywood? How can they be when the lady you saw dancing in a bar last night could very well end up being the same lady you talk to at Hollywood tonight. Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý I can also see brother Chompoo's point about the need for rules and for following those rules. The bars are a business and the #1 rule of business is to make money. The alarm company I work for has a rule that I'm not allowed to install security systems that weren't sold through the company, even on my own time. They call it a conflict of interest because they're in the business of selling and installing security systems and I work for them. In order for it not to be a conflict of interest I would have to quit my job and start my own alarm company. I can see and respect their point so I don't do security systems on the side. Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý However, as much as I can see the bars point of view about the BF rules the problem I have with them and their rules is that in a lot of instances THEY THEMSELVES DON'T EVEN BOTHER TO FOLLOW THEIR OWN RULES. Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý I'm afraid I'm not entirely up to speed on this bar rule so I will bow to Mr. Joe or BK to correct any mistakes I make, but isn't it a rule in the bars in LOS that once a lady has been BF'd then she is considered OFF for the rest of the night? Don't they have some kind of blackboard or something with all the ladies names on it and when any of them gets bar fined then they write the word OFF next to her name to indicate that she has been BF'd and is NOT required to work at the bar any more that night? Isn't that the offficial rule at all or most bars in LOS? Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý ÝSo what right does the bar have to break that rule and charge other guys a BF for the same lady just because the guy who originally BF'd her only wanted her ST so afterwards having nothing better to do she goes back to the bar to hang out and maybe try and score another customer. From what I understand if she does return to the bar, because she's OFF for the rest of the evening, she can't even change back into her dance clothes because she's considered OFF from working. She has to spend her time there in her street clothes. Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Unless I'm mistaken, that's a very big firm rule that all or most of the bars that require payment of a BF abide by, and yet a lot of the bars don't seem to have a problem breaking that rule. Who's being unethical now? Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý ÝFinally let me ask this question. Most bars give the ladies part of the BF, but what if after she is originally BF'd she leaves and returns twice with two other customers before the bar closes at 2 am and the bar makes them both pay BF's for her. Since she's considered OFF as of the first BF does that mean she's not entitled to any of the other two BF's? Also as far as meeting her BF quota for the month will she get credit for all three BF's or just the original one? They say that rules are made to be broken, but how do you know what's the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do when the people making the rules can't even honor those rules themselves. Peace
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:34 pm on Dec. 19, 2002
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MrJoe
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Cmore:
If a girl returns to the bar it is by choice. It is also her choice if she is BFed or not. If she gets another customer from the bar (and takes away the opportunity for one of her colleagues to get that customer) the bar may feel entitled to get thier "introduction fee" and the girl would ordinarily be happy to get another "off" to her credit. (She is given her cut.) Some bars won't require her to be "offed" if say, she meets a friend/customer who invites her to go with him to another bar. In those bars some girls will be the ones who try and get another BF out of the situation and the saavy customer will say "You've already been BFed." She might respond with an expletive or she might say "OK, I'll see you outside." or if the bar management is cool "Let's go."
I don't see any contradiction or unfair aspect to this actually.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 11:41 pm on Dec. 19, 2002
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Chompoo
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In order for it not to be a conflict of interest I would have to quit my job and start my own alarm company.
Better check your employment contract, they might have a rule against that too Ý(Many companies do have so-called non-compete agreements.)
However, as much as I can see the bars point of view about the BF rules the problem I have with them and their rules is that in a lot of instances THEY THEMSELVES DON'T EVEN BOTHER TO FOLLOW THEIR OWN RULES.
One of the fundamental principles of ethics is that other people acting unethically doesn't give you carte blanche to act unethically in response. In general, I try to be at least a little more ethical than the people I'm dealing with (so the system doesn't degrade), but I don't have a problem with a little dishonesty to right an injustice (although many people perceive injustices when they don't truly exist, e.g. your BF examples).
I think MrJoe answered your BF ambiguity pretty well. The thing to remember is that it is a simple system and therefore not completely fair in every scenario. Fine tuning the system would be unnecessarily complex and there is no real benefit. What is the alternative to the multiple BF a night problem? Either you don't let the girl come back or you have the perverse system where some of the girls working don't require BFs (which is hard to explain to customers and is unfair to the other girls). Who really loses out because of the multiple BFs?
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 12:15 am on Dec. 20, 2002
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