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Hermanolobo
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Should I stay or should I go?
By Gordon Sharpless
Tales of Asia
September 2003
Many expats living in Thailand have felt a bit under fire since Thaksin
Shinawatra's Thai Rak Thai government took power with a
nationalist/populist platform. There have been new and stricter
regulations on foreign-owned businesses and investment, a substantial
increase in visa and work permit fees, and stricter visa requirements
with the latest change doubling the necessary monthly income and minimum
level of cash kept in a Thai bank for foreigners seeking one-year visas
because they are married to a Thai citizen. Most expats would agree that
the rules governing business, investment, residency, etc have always
been stacked against foreigners and these new regulations only raise
that stack higher.
Sure, this is Thailand and the Thais can do whatever they feel is in
their best interests for their people and their country, which also
assumes then, that you believe government decisions are always made with
the best interests of their people and country in mind. But that's a
topic for another day.
There are, however, some relevant arguments spawned from these changes.
There is first, the matter of whether we foreigners are guests in
Thailand or not, at what point if ever, do we stop being guests? And
just what exactly our are rights to criticize Thai governmental
decisions that affect us? And in the long run, are stricter requirements
placed upon foreigners living in Thailand a good thing or not? And
finally, if to some foreigners, Thailand does well and truly become an
unpalatable place to live, are there other regional alternatives?
Are we guests? In most cases we are not. But before I go further, let me
point out that under no circumstances does anything I say in opposition
to this "guest" mentality stand as an excuse to be a rude, ignorant,
offensive jerk. No matter what "status" one assumes for foreigners in
Thailand, it is imperative at all times that we are aware of how Thai
culture and society functions, how we fit ourselves into that society,
to know what things are most important to Thais and to show the proper
respect and deference to these things, and so on. It is their country
and we have to respect the society and culture they have created and
adapt ourselves to it and not vice versa. However, this doesn't mean we
have to be doormats either.
Anyway, back to this guest thing. Let's start at the beginning, with
tourists. Chances are somewhere you read or heard that Thailand was a
great place to visit. So you come and you spend lots of money. Sounds to
me like you're not a guest but a customer and the product you purchased
is tourism. Tourism is a multi-billion baht business in Thailand and the
country has made considerable and successful effort to market themselves
to the world as an international tourist destination. So how is this
different from any other industry which promotes its product? They sell
it, we buy it. Granted, there are still differences from say purchasing
a pair of shoes in the local department store and of course one should
be a good customer and respect Thai culture and society while visiting,
but when you boil it all down, tourists are customers. If Thailand did
not actively promote itself as a viable tourist destination and say,
took the approach of Bhutan, then perhaps the guest argument would be a
little stronger.
The next group of people are those who have decided that maybe Thailand
would be a good place to settle for awhile, but haven't really made up
their mind. Or perhaps they'll take a job here for a year or three but
no more. Of all possible categories of foreigners this is possibly the
one group that falls most easily into the guest category. Unlike
tourists, these individuals haven't made the tourism purchase and unlike
longtime expatriates, they haven't really invested anything in the
country or shown any other reason why they should deserve any privilege
other than a 90-day visa.
But perhaps at some point you decide to make the investment and set up a
business here bringing in a few million baht, and perhaps later you
marry a Thai woman, settle into a home, raise children who could very
well be the next generation of film, television, and music stars, and
you pay taxes, and you raise your children as Thais. At this point what
kind of rights should you have? I say at this point you deserve equal
status under the law and you are most certainly anything but a guest.
Period. From a societal point of view no foreigner will ever be accepted
as Thai and I think most if not all foreigners who make Thailand their
permanent or near permanent home are okay with this, but legal status is
something different.
It's a treacherous road to travel to compare Thailand to our native
countries, but I always like a little risk now and then. I'm an American
and my country is admittedly not an easy one for Thais to receive a visa
for unless they have a lot of money, which in some respects mirrors the
direction Thailand is moving as they make their country more
restrictive. Fair enough. However, as difficult as it may be to get
one's foot into America, once the footprint is set, one is afforded
rights that are in most cases equivalent to those set aside for citizens
and certainly far more equal than one presently receives in Thailand. A
Thai national will find few barriers to home ownership, business
startup, financial investment, marriage, banking regulations, driving
licenses, etc. And the present Thai government certainly knows this as
about half of the present cabinet is made up of American-educated Thais
and there are many wealthy Thais, including members of this government,
who have taken full advantage of liberal western business and property
law and maintain businesses and residences, which they own outright with
full legal protection, in western countries.
The Thaksin government says they are seeking "quality foreigners", which
I think means "rich foreigners". The new requirements to obtain a visa
for spousal support is an income of at least 40,000 baht a month
(presently just under $1000 US) and a Thai bank account with at least
400,000 baht in it. I think a lot of foreigners can comply with this
law, but as we are talking families here and let's face it, more Thais
than not live on less than 40,000 baht a month and have less than
400,000 in the bank, there's a major inequality here. And if there are
some longtime residents here who have been law-abiding members of their
community and are unable to comply to this law, does this raise the
possibility of breaking up families?
Still, having tougher requirements isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Perhaps Thailand is seeing itself as a more developed country, which it
is, and is taking measures to behave more like one and one of these ways
is to tighten up its visa and residency requirements. Fair enough.
However, tightening the requirements to get the visa in the first place
is one thing, changing the rules when you are already here is another.
In the name of basic fairness, shouldn't we see a relaxation of
employment, business, and property regulations for those foreigners who
can otherwise comply with the more rigid minimums and in all other ways
prove to be functional humans contributing to the country? If foreigners
must make 40,000 baht a month, shouldn't then the foreigners already
married to a Thai citizen and trying to raise and support a family be
given a few more opportunities to comply with this through relaxed
business and employment laws?
I think one thing that makes a lot of foreigners nervous about Thailand
is that we can invest large sums of cash, raise a family, have a home,
but at any day at any time, the government can pass a law and we lose
everything. They want our money but they don't want to give us any
rights. Yes the superficial response is "Hey, buddy, you didn't have to
come here, stop complaining." Well, give me a break and don't be so
reactive. You're right, we didn't have to come. But we did and they
allowed us to come and they accepted our money, we married one of their
daughters and are now raising their children and raising them more as
Thai than anything else (look at all the film stars!).
We're not asking to take over the country. We're asking for the security
of knowing that once we've made the commitment to live here as
law-abiding residents respecting Thai society and culture and doing our
best to be decent neighbors, that we can own the homes we live in with
the security that no law can be passed that takes those homes away
because of our nationality, that we can live here with the security that
our status as residents won't be rescinded on the whim of a nationalist
governmental official, that we can start, run, and own outright an
honest business on equal legal footing with Thais. We our husbands and
fathers of Thais, businessmen investing money in Thailand, taxpayers
contributing to the Thai public coffers, and the like. I don't think
having legal equality and protection is too much to ask.
So I go
The latest round of legislation regarding foreigners has more than a few
residents wondering if maybe it's time to pack up and leave. And if so
where? By and large the neighborhood isn't too attractive, but there is
one country I'm well familiar with that for some, may be well worth a
look. That country is Cambodia.
I've been surprised how little many Thailand-based expats know about
Cambodia. Some have only made visa runs never passing the border area, a
few more have made the odd trip to Siem Reap and/or Phnom Penh, and some
have never been there at all. But I think many have considered Cambodia
as little more than a backward corrupt country with a lot of old
temples, some really strange expatriates, and a seedy atmosphere.
Well, it's not so backward and not nearly as corrupt as many people
think. The seediness, well, they're working on that one. And while it
does have more than it's share of oddball expats, Cambodia also has
plenty of intelligent, functioning individuals as well. But yes,
they/we, yes we, Cambodia is where I actually make my money and spend
half of my time, are generally a bit odd, but it does make life more
interesting. And before passing judgment on the expatriate population in
Cambodia, have a look at all the expat mafia don wannabes living in
Pattaya!
Cambodia, though still a very poor country, is progressing at a very
encouraging rate. In four years (1998-2002) per capita GDP in Cambodia
has increased from $700 a year to $1500 (world rank 186/231) with a real
growth rate of 5.2% ranking Cambodia an impressive 30th out of 213. For
comparisons sake Thailand's per capita GDP has grown from $6100 a year
to $6900 (world rank 99/231) a year in the same period. Cambodia's
industrial production growth rate, estimated at 16%, is the
third-fastest expansion rate in the world. Thailand ranks 88th at 3.00%.
Advantages of Cambodia:
Government. The CPP government is not nearly as corrupt as the news
media makes it out to be. While imperfections and corruption do exist, a
majority of the corruption problems in Cambodia have stemmed not from
CPP ministries but from Funcinpec ministries. However, the Funcinpec
party is becoming less and less of a presence with each passing election
and will have very little influence in the next government which will be
forming, we hope, in the next month or two. And before passing any
judgment over the honesty, perceived or real, of the CPP government,
consider what exists in Thailand or anywhere else for that matter.
Furthermore, while a lot of questions have been raised as to the
fairness of Cambodian elections, consider democracy in Thailand... how
long ago was the last military coup...?
Business climate. The CPP government is quite open to foreign investment
and overall the climate is quite favorable. Any honest, law-abiding
foreign-owned business is welcome in Cambodia. Though property ownership
restrictions exist, in many fields, it is possible for a foreigner to
own their businesses outright 100%. I have to admit I'm not well versed
on the legalities of setting up a major corporation, but in respect to a
small business (i.e. guesthouse, bar, bookstore, etc.) it's a very
straightforward and painless process. Fill out a few forms, obtain a few
licenses, pay a little bit of money, you're good to go. I've heard few
small business owners complain about the process. Taxation is also
reasonable. Small businesses are supposed to pay taxes and the rate is
fairly negotiable. Basically what happens is the taxman turns up at your
place of business, sees what you sell, enters it all into a formula
based on your product, if it's a restaurant - number of tables, bar
stools, etc, if it's a guesthouse or hotel - number of rooms, size,
quality, etc. and then factoring in such variables like what kind of
mood he's in, did you serve him a nice drink, what did the fortune
teller say to him yesterday, how's the weather, etc, he'll come up with
a figure which you then negotiate down a little. And no one I know
complains about the final agreed upon rate. Taxes in Cambodia are fair.
And what about working? Yes, unlike Thailand you can work your own
business in Cambodia. Of course you'll want to hire local staff, but if
the staff is busy and you want to pour a customer a drink, you can
legally do it. There are very few restrictions on foreigners working the
businesses they own.
Corruption/mafia. Not a problem. Run a bar? Forget it, there is no
liquor mafia. No one will come around and shake you down for payments
each month. No one will force you into using a certain distributor.
These things simply don't happen here. You open your business. You pay
your taxes. You run it honestly and don't piss anyone off and you will
be left alone. Shakedowns make a nice story and fit in well with the
image many people have (or want to have) about Cambodia but it's not the
reality anymore. Doing business in Cambodia is by and large as much of a
professional and normal activity as it is anywhere else. Yes, business
owners have problems, staff revolts, a revenge attack because someone
got upset with them, employee theft, yes, these things happen but these
are situations hardly unique to Cambodia.
Opportunity. Cambodia is booming. Right now the bulk of the attention is
on tourism but as the country prospers numerous other opportunities are
sure to develop. I can't name them all but if you have experience in
some sort of industry or manufacturing you may find opportunities here,
but you're going to have to find them on your own and not through me,
it's not my field of expertise. And while the country is booming the
usual rules apply, if you couldn't run a business in your home country
there's no reason to think you can do it here. But if you have the
skills and know-how and are looking for new pastures, I would strongly
recommend you see if your skills don't have a place in Cambodia.
Disadvantages of Cambodia:
Labor pool. Plentiful and cheap but not well educated. Many Cambodians
are eager for a job opportunity and will do their best to do a decent
job. Problem is they don't always know how. Education was one of the
biggest losses of the Khmer Rouge and civil war era and the country has
not progressed as well as it should in this area. There are business
colleges in Phnom Penh cranking out skilled workers, sure, but if you
thought sometimes Thai staff could have, shall we say, a curious way of
getting a job done, you ain't seen nothing until you get to Cambodia. As
for honesty, Cambodians are no more or less honest than anyone anywhere
else. If anything, probably a little more honest, but leave an open
opportunity to steal from you and someone will take that opportunity,
same as anywhere else. I think the most frustrating thing some foreign
employers have experienced is shortsightedness. I know of employers
paying generous salaries well in excess of $100 a month and even $200 a
month (in Cambodia these are generous salaries) catching staff stealing
as little as 50 cents from the till. While foreigners complain of
shortsightedness in Thailand it is much more pronounced in Cambodia and
of course much of that stems from a decade or so of not knowing whether
or not you'd be alive tomorrow let alone if you'd have any money to buy
a bowl of rice if you were alive.
Infrastructure. Getting better but still well behind Thailand.
Electricity works most of the time but is quite expensive. Water, you
can't drink it, but there are municipal supplies that work. Roads are a
disaster and while improvements are being made it's a slow process and
the highway system won't be reasonably sorted out until the latter half
of this decade. High-speed internet is here but it's expensive. Landline
internet is slower than molasses. The mobile system is comprehensive but
the network is not as reliable as Thailand. Landline phones are limited
to Phnom Penh and provincial capitals and are also expensive. There is
no BTS. No highways. No comprehensive public bus system, local or
inter-provincial..
Cost of living. Higher in Cambodia. Cambodia produces very little so
most products, even basic household items, are imported, mostly from
Thailand, but Vietnam as well. Food is also expensive. While Thailand
has one of the world's finest international cuisines, Cambodia's local
cuisine is the finest local cuisine in, well, Cambodia. You'll find
yourself eating out a lot here and paying about double what you'd pay in
Thailand. Also a lot of local produce is of poor quality and there are
issues with dangerous pesticides indiscriminately sprayed on fruits and
vegetables often by people who have no idea what it is they are
spraying. See http://www.ejfoundation.org/reports.html for more
information on pesticide use in Cambodia. Electricity is more expensive.
Gasoline is about 50-75% more expensive. Rents are a little higher as
well.
Availability of consumer goods. You can get almost anything in Thailand.
You can get almost anything in Cambodia, too, but you usually have to
ask some expat doing a supply run to Bangkok to get it for you. Basic
household and electronic goods are available, but you won't find much
above the basics. Obscure parts for any machinery or electrical goods
will inevitably come from Thailand or farther, like Japan. On the other
hand, we are seeing an increase in the number of businesses employing
individuals able to make sophisticated repairs to thing like cameras,
computers, etc.
Healthcare. This is one of the biggest minuses for Cambodia. It just
isn't here. I can't stress enough the importance of having medical
insurance that will include evacuation to Bangkok and a stay at
Bumrungrad or BNH. Basic illnesses and injuries can be reasonably well
sorted out in Cambodia, but you just don't want a major problem here.
Education. If you have kids you probably don't want to bring them here.
There are some okay private schools, but overall the standards still lag
well behind the offerings in Thailand.
Safety. I'm not sure that Cambodia is overall any more unsafe than
Thailand in respect to muggings, etc. Security has improved tremendously
in the past three years. Highway banditry has largely disappeared and
while armed robbery in Phnom Penh still occurs it's a less likely event
now. The biggest concern is road accidents as the driving habits of
Cambodians are absolutely atrocious, even in comparison to Thailand.
The wildcard: Things of a personal nature which can't necessarily be
judged an advantage or a disadvantage.
Entertainment/lifestyle. By and large, life in Cambodia is a laid-back
existence. There's not nearly as much to do here. There are a couple of
movie theaters in Phnom Penh but they show only local films. The first
shopping mall opened in Phnom Penh this year and has little to interest
foreign tastes. The adult entertainment scene is, on the surface,
sleazier than in Thailand, though below the surface I'd argue it's
basically all the same. Simply put, there's a lot less to do in Cambodia
than in Thailand, which for some, can be a good thing. On the other
hand, several major hotels have fitness centers which expats can join.
If you can ride a motorbike there are numerous off-road riding
opportunities and Cambodia still has some areas largely unexplored.
Culture and society. Quite similar in many respects but we're not
supposed to talk about the Khmer influences on Thai culture. However,
culture goes both ways and while much of Khmer culture, derived from
Indian/Hindu/Balinese sources found its way to Thailand, in more recent
centuries we've seen a reversal of culture flow. This is especially
prevalent now and one only has to watch the selection of programming on
Cambodian television to see it. In any event, these are still two
different countries. Cambodians are much more open to foreign
influences. Unlike Thailand, Cambodia had a long French occupation and a
more recent NGO occupation for as no sooner did the Vietnamese leave,
that the Cambodians found their country overrun with foreigners, so
between the ninety-year French protectorate as well as the current NGO
protectorate, the Cambodians seem quite used to having foreigners around
doing things and doing things for them. You're still a foreigner, yes,
but in time you will find yourself treated much less like a guest here.
Also, unlike Thailand where Thais seemed shocked to find any foreigner
speaking their language no matter how long you've been in the country,
Cambodians as a whole do expect foreign residents to speak at least
basic Khmer and they seem, I think rightly so, insulted when you can't
(this of course does not apply to tourists or recent arrivals). Cambodia
society is more conservative and seemingly more backward than Thailand
and this is especially true where women and relationships with women are
concerned. Do not expect to socialize with Khmer women with anywhere
near the same ease as can be done in Thailand. This of course, does not
include girls hanging out in bars. One last point, Thais and Khmers
don't really like each other. If you have a Thai significant other, this
could be a major barrier to resettlement. While there is a considerable
and close-knit Thai community in both Phnom Penh and Siem Reap comprised
mostly of business owners who seem to manage in Cambodia quite well,
with a few exceptions, January 29th not withstanding... tee rak may
quickly tire of what she'll see as a country with lousy food, crude
people, a dirty environment, and probably a few other things we
Westerners wouldn't see as important. Do consider this.
Ultimately, most Thailand-based expats won't leave, but if the thought
is present, do not dismiss Cambodia outright. It's a country that's
rapidly changing for the better. Cambodia is not for everyone, but at
the same time, to wave your hand and say it's a country full of dodgy
expats and an incompetent corrupt government is simply wrong. The
Cambodia of 2003 has well progressed beyond Pol Pot, UNTAC, Off the
Rails, and so forth.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 3:18 am on Oct. 1, 2003
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Tom_Photographer
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Great post Hermanolobo, thx!
I've been to Cambodia (mainly Phnom Penh) 10 times now and start feeling home there more and more - and that not for P4P reasons. I share most points made in the article and found it informativ in the way of a summary of conditions there.
Since my first visit to cambo I developed kind of a friendship with some khmers and was observing especially the development in the IT/webhosting sector there, doing websites for a hotel, photography and such stuff. Though I am an HR expert (german) I see some opportunities on that field in future and developed some ideas. However, still waiting for the right moment to move to Asia...
I agree fully on the mentioned possibilities to start business for us BARANGS (as they call us), easy going and in cambo you still get credits, I mean concerning acceptance, as a barang (not the same as in LOS).
Grtx Tom
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 1:12 pm on Oct. 2, 2003
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fastmover
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Nice find Mr Hermanolobo.....everything in one report....thankyou.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 1:40 pm on Oct. 2, 2003
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Jeffbkk
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Hermanolobo,
Very interesting report.
I'm planning also to move to cambodia after being in Thailand quite long.
As you know PNH quite well, could you give me some hints about renting Appartement in PNH, do you know some nice places. I heard about Lotus Villa but 550$ a month is a bit high for me.
And what kind of health insurance should i apply to get evacuated to BKK if necessary. Any advices?
Thanks
Jeff
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 5:36 am on Oct. 3, 2003
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Hermanolobo
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Jeff Bkk
Not my report -
Copied from the newsgroup social culture Thai
if you type in:-
http://www.deja.com
and then search 'Thai'
this should take you to social.culture,thai
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 8:51 am on Oct. 3, 2003
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Jeffbkk
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Don't you have any info on appartments in PNH and health insurance?
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 7:06 am on Oct. 4, 2003
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Padawan
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lobo,
interesting article but you really should learn to link to copyrighted stuff - especially since your "cut & paste" jobs are always lengthy. just my two baht...
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:24 am on Oct. 5, 2003
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Packripper
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One reason why Cambodia is "booming" is because Thai Chinese businesses have been entrenched and exanding there for more than a decade. Still plenty of opportunity there for Thais and falangs alike. Suggest you hurry though, or you'll be late to that party as well.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:44 am on May 16, 2004
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