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ThaidUp
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Hermanolobo, yes Stickman is an interesting read, but the problem is there is no public forum section for any opposing views. A very interesting article on the same lines was posted by one of his readers. http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/reader/reader374.html I would like to relate a similar effort in CA, USA. During the month of June I spent in the USA and I decided one day to visit some of my old haunts in Asian Massage Parlors. It had been five years since I been to one in CA and unknown to me Orange County (Newport Beach area) that was previously home to >50 massage places now has Zero, completely erraticated. This was not done overnight, but by bit-by-bit tatics: > Vice Sting Operations. > Expensive License Renewals > Publishing of names of customers found in violation of code of conduct > Requiring customers to register with Driver License numbers. > Yearly down limiting of licenses. The laws were always on the books, but previously never enforced. Sound familar. As the article states, the PM does not want the famous night life areas to exist and rather than close them down in one swipe they will use the Chinese water torture method until it is difficult for the bar owners, BG's and customers to transact business. It has already taken its toll: Soi 10 Bars Gone The Living Room Bar Area Gone Beer Bars on the corner of Asoke ready for demo. IMHO the P4P scene will not go away as you cannot take the university girl's desire for designer items, but the landscape will definitely be different. Now is the best time to do this. Thailand is on an economic roll and being rich in natural resources they have a lot to gain in the world economy. Thailand will not miss much even if the entire sex tourist area would be shut down. We like to deceive ourselves that by our contributions to BG's income we are helping the Thai economy. When you dig down deep of what happens to the money you will find many a bar girl has either drug or gambling habits which use up most of her income. The money is not going home to Mom or Dad it is probably going to her Thai BF who stays home not working getting drunk and playing cards. So, most of this money stays underground ("Untaxed"). Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but how many BG's have cars? How many have savings >25K THB? Many are lowering their price of ST to pay the rent or their cell phone bill just before its due. So I do not think for one minute Thailand will miss our economic contribution to its soceity.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 8:49 am on Sep. 8, 2003
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Triyclops
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Thaidup, Very interesting point of view. Thank's for injecting some constructive information, and for bringing this thread back on topic. Genetal men, start your engines... TC. ps. fartlover, I only drink beer and pussy juice. A bit like a Tunafish Shandy... That also explains the bad breath. Sorry about the spelling, couldn't resist it. FOTFFLMFAO. I really do love this palce you know
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 9:08 am on Sep. 8, 2003
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Mr Alan
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In CA, like most of the USA, these operations have moved to the Internet. This has many advantages such as little or no overhead for a place of business (other than some minor internet hosting fees). It is also harder for the vice squad to shut them down because they have to deal with one operator at time if the girl is working in-call out of her own apartment, or in the case of out-call it is almost impossible to track them down unless you put a tail on girl 24 hours a day or get a court order for a phone or email tap. Technology is a great leveler and an enabler of free-market economics. I predict that Thailand will move in the same direction if necessary.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:19 am on Sep. 8, 2003
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Minder
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Since Stickman married a lovely Thai lady a little while ago he and his column have had to change tact somewhat. His predictions on the "fate" of the scene have come to represent a worst case scenario most of the time now. Note the development of the Mrs Stick part of the column and read her comments this week about the ducks. Shudder. That said, he does know his stuff and does have contacts with several bar owners - so if he says business is down, then business is most probably down. Be interested to see how much of this crackdown continues after the APEC conference. Heard yesteday boy George is visiting Oz on his way home from that one.....
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 10:09 am on Sep. 8, 2003
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ThaidUp
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Mr. Alan, I agree with your assessment, the P4P will not disappear from Thailand, but maybe the in-your-face scene will. I happen to have a personnal relationship with an owner/operator of a MP in Newport Beach, she was pulling in 300 K USD per year clear, it is doubtful you can pull that kind of money in operating over the Internet, but what the Internet has done is fragment the market down to the individual provider level. The trouble with the Internet and P4P is that it is a lot of work and you do not have the ease of transaction of seeing the product on display and making the immediate buy. While this may be fine for residents of Thailand who have the time to invest, for the 2 week, bang 3 girls a day man, it is going to be too much hassle. I suspect this type of client will more to greener pastures. Minder, yes like I said there is no direct feedback forum to take the Stickman to task on any of his views. I particular disagree with his views on the class structure within Thailand. He is very worried about fitting in and maintaining his class within the proper guildlines. I am of the firm belief, no matter what you do here you will never fit in or be accepted as one of our gang at best you will be tolerated. Fortunately, I can live with that and I do not have to cowtail to the class structure here in order to get business. Being an English teacher in Thailand is defintely a hard road to travel and I would not want to be in his shoes. You can write an email, but he selects what he publishes. It seems if he steps out of line too far his wife will further tighten the noose around his balls
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 11:05 am on Sep. 8, 2003
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haam sup
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I've been reading this thread for a while now, and what I see is this: 1) guys who are worried about how the 'current crackdown' is going to affect their personal situation, i.e, "...should I wait until after APEC to go to Thailand and party?" 2) guys who are worried about the longterm changes, i.e., more mature guys, who possess sufficient delay-of-gratification to worry about their next 5 trips... and 3) guys who are well situated in Thailand, and tend to discount the crackdown as temporary, transient and natural. There's a LOT to be said for being there full-time, and adopting the wizened expat cynicism as a badge of merit. The only problem, as I see it, is that the ones most vocal about the impermanence of the crackdown lack much historical perspective. Being one of the lucky few, who have actual expat jobs, and have been in country for a few years, DOES NOT provide guaranteed understanding of the reasons for the global changes that, IMO, make Thailand RIPE for more radical and permanent change than ever before in our lifetimes. I'm not pretending to be an oldtimer; my first trip to Thailand was in 1982. But, I have ALWAYS been interested in more than P4P in the country. I started studying Thai in the early eighties, I travel with an eye to understanding what is taking place around me, and most of the pleasure I derive from my time there is about other than the nightlife. I first felt the beginnings of the current pressure in the words of Joe Cummings in an early '90s edition of the Looney Planet: (I paraphrase) "...besides, any guy who would want to take advantage of some poor farmer's daughter's economic disadvantage..." This sexual-political view of Thai P4P had a fairly limited audience: 'adventure' travelers, willing to read a book on how to have an 'adventure'. Thailand enjoyed a certain reputation among sex-tourists, particularly in Europe: "Horny Huns Invade Bangkok", the title of an '80s article in Oui magazine (a Playboy publication). But there DEFINITELY wasn't a sizable group of 20-something backpackers, particularly women, hanging around Khao San Rd., and living dissipated lives while publishing Web blogs and sending emails: "The plight of women is TERRIBLE here. I am truly distressed about it. Please send more money so I can stay a bit longer, and smoke some more ganga with the Thai guy I just met. Thanks Mom..." Now, of course, EVERYBODY smirks when you tell them you are vacationing in Thailand, assuming they can distinguish it from Taiwan. "Yeah, I saw some of them Taiwanese on TV the other day..." Where did they get the idea? Why smirk? They got it from TV and the Internet. "Wild On...Thailand!", "Survivor:Thailand", and the like always have a sentence or two about the 'fleshpots', and it's always a smutty treatment. The existence of this board, and it's bretheren, are a true revelation to those who read it. And, from observing what goes on here, I conclude that it is difficult to remember that we are ALL standing in front of the class (albeit, with masks on) and shouting our indiscretions to all who will listen. And PLENTY do. So, you might ask what is the point? The point is that I believe we are at a UNIQUE crossroads. Never before have so many people had access to such a biased view of what Thailand is about. It's human nature to be drawn to sex discussion as gawkers and voyeurs, and WE are the fodder for them all. There are MANY times more discussion boards focusing on sex in Thailand than there are on temples and waterfalls. And we are at an all-time peak of political correctness, and particularly so regarding man-woman relationships, and 'feminism'. Guys are apologising themselves to DEATH for being guys, while women are emulating the worst male traits, and then retreating behind traditional feminine defenses when someone attempts to hold them accountable. "I may lack "reason and accountability", but I have the law and Gloria Allred behind me, so bye-bye, Mr. Nicholson...", said Helen Hunt's character to Jack's, as she fires her .38, in MY version of "As Good as it Gets"... So now we have Thailand, wanting to step up on the World platform, being seen through EXTREMELY foggy glasses, and Mr. T applying the typical Thai bandaid, but on a World-visible scale. Even 10 years ago, a temporary crackdown during APEC would have sufficed. Now, the situation can be monitored DAILY, albeit, without ANY knowledge or understanding of Thailand as a whole. I believe this combination is entirely unprecedented, and will result in major change. And although it will affect ME very little (I can move about outside farang nightlife easily), I STILL don't think it is good for Thailand. Change, for its own sake, rarely is. And whether or not you want to hear it, Thailand is ALREADY beginning to lose the charm that existed as little as 10 years ago... Please spare me the ex-GI rantings about how, from YOUR perspective (a barstool), the scene is the same today as it was when you were here on R&R in the '60s or '70s. It just AIN'T relevant. haam sup
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 12:27 pm on Sep. 8, 2003
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ThaidUp
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Agreed, many people said oh the 2:00 AM closings will not last because the backlash will be so strong from the bar owners that it will be overturned shortly. Here after one-year we still have the 2:00 AM closings. Piece-by-Piece the whole P4P will be dismantled in its current stated and raised up a level. Take the bars away and the poor girls from the farm go back home as they cannot rise to the level that will be required to play.. i.e. computer, internet. The university girl who has her own car and wants to augment her income for buying Prada shoes will still be allowed in the new social order as she has the intelligence to provide her services discreetly and not walk down the side of Sukhumvitt in belly shirts. The price of admission in Thailand is planing to go up and those with backpack in hand are not welcomed. So all backpackers better change your plans to Laos, Cambodia or any other third world country. I may not agree with these changes, but these are the new rules of the game and if you want to play the game you have to play by the rules. Thailand wants to be a home for the high rollers only and it you can't ante up, then its time to play with the nickel slots in some other country.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 1:14 pm on Sep. 8, 2003
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fastmover
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from Mr. haam sup....... "The point is that I believe we are at a UNIQUE crossroads. Never before have so many people had access to such a biased view of what Thailand is about." _______________________________________________- This one of the most astute comments made about the crack down. In fact its almost brilliant. The media and the internet offer up a fantastic amount of material, expose it, make it accessible, and worse, people digest it without understanding it or considering the relative truth of the material. The more lurid and sensational, the better. And in addition, tales are told and posted with ease creating an 'in your face' representation of a country, in this case Thailand. National pride rages. Terrific post...great read...spot on theory.
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 1:46 pm on Sep. 8, 2003
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Holy Diver
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I am curious as to what about the "crackdown" has so many folks so worried? As of now, what has really happened? By my count, that which is actually noticible is the 2AM closing time (easy to get around in my opinion), no sex shows (never liked sex shows anyway), no naked dancers (not necessary in my opinion) and no underage girls (a good thing to remove underage girls from adult nightlife areas). That is pretty much it correct? Oh yes, piss testing - so no drugs either (another net plus in my view). Am I the only person who thinks at least some of these new rules are actually GOOD things? Isn't it better that underage girls are swept from the bars? Isn't the Thai governments attempt to clean up the drug scene in these nightlife establishments a GOOD thing? What have you actually lost if sex shows and totally nude dancing is gone? I am not talking about the governments tactics, I am just talking about the goals and the net effect of the police's actions. Is this really such a big deal? Let us put it all in a little perspective. For those that come to Thailand for P4P, isn't there still huge numbers of women working in the various establishments whom are only a barfine away from being safely tucked away in any paying customers bed? Isn't there discos and pool halls just loaded with freelancers whose price of admission doesn't even consist of a barfine? Not to mention all the girls cluttering up Sukhumvit at night looking for a punter or three. And I haven't even addressed Pattaya yet, where there are literally thousands of beer bar girls. So a sex tourist coming to Thailand and staying in the farang jungle of lower Suk has, despite all the goings on with the "crackdown", enough opportunity to screw Thai girls to keep him busy for years on end. The cosmetics aside, their really is no impact on the actual sex for money. The overt system of paying a barfine, or not, and working out a price for sex and then paying the fee for services rendered has not even been discussed by the government so far as I can see (other than some rumblings about massage parlours which is really just a reaction to Chuwit's mouthing off). Is it so bad that Thailand tries to clean up its image. I mean, really, can you not blame the Thai's for disliking the fact that their country is viewed as a giant sex playground? Sure, it would be bad if the Thai government overreacts and insitutes a national bedtime (which by the way, I am not altogether convinced PM Thaksin wouldn't like to do), but nothing like that has happened. Honestly, wouldn't some of you actually like to see Thailand rid itself of some of the low class punters and football hooligans loitering around Sukhumvit. I know, I can do without those types (no offense to any low class punters and football hooligans meant). Lastly, change happens. Get used to it. Even if Thailand overreacts and shuts down the famous nightlife areas completely - there would still be plenty of available women, you'd just have to find them in different types of venues. And for those tourists that can't be bothered to learn about the country and just want an in your face sex romp - there are plenty of other countries to visit. If all people care about is a rowdy P4P scene, I am confident that those folks can find somewhere else to go. HD
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 5:30 pm on Sep. 8, 2003
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The Machine
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HD said "Is this really such a big deal? Let us put it all in a little perspective. For those that come to Thailand for P4P, isn't there still huge numbers of women working in the various establishments whom are only a barfine away from being safely tucked away in any paying customers bed? Isn't there discos and pool halls just loaded with freelancers whose price of admission doesn't even consist of a barfine? Not to mention all the girls cluttering up Sukhumvit at night looking for a punter or three. And I haven't even addressed Pattaya yet, where there are literally thousands of beer bar girls. " I couldn't agree with you more. Stop worrying guys!
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 11:59 pm on Sep. 8, 2003
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