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Valetta
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Magnum,when are you going to provide evidence to back up your statement that "25-30% of all public expenditure is swept directly into corrupt Thai politicians`pockets"?
Provide that evidence and you will show all of us that it was not an invention.
Unfortunately your last post is just another example of "shoot the messenger".I draw attention to the fact that your statement seems improbable,invite you to provide evidence,you do not,I suggest it is an invention,and your response is to shoot me.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:59 am on Feb. 17, 2012
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Kaymanx
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What magnum wrote was this : "if you belive the private Thai consortium created to fight Thai official corruption (yeah, right!), 25-30% of all public expenditures is swept directly into corrupt Thai politicians pockets... "
To my thinking the key words are : "if you believe the Thai consortium." As a lawyer you should have cottoned on, Valetta 
In any case, as a rough subjective estimate even, 25-30% of public expenditures does not seem an exaggeration of siphoning estimates in a third world country. I strongly believe even that is an under-estimation.
Transparency International ranked Thailand 80th out of 182 countries surveyed in its 2011 Corruption Perceptions Index. To get an idea of how rotten Third World corruption is just look at how the Index plummets within this list : Top-ranking country New Zealand scores 9.5 while Thailand at 80th scores just 3.4. In other words, from 1 to 80 the Index drops steeply by 6.1. On the other hand, from 80th ranking Thailand to bottom-of-the-heap Somalia at 182 (with a score of 1) the Index drops by just 2.4 !
This is good evidence that very little differentiates one Third World country from another. So, from my bird's eye view perched atop an obscure tree in a 95th ranking country, if I KNOW that public expenditures can be padded up 300% or 600%, is it reasonable to damn magnum's angelic estimate of 25-30% for 80th ranking Thailand ?
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 7:48 am on Feb. 17, 2012
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expatchuck
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Perhaps 300 meters from my home up-country, the municipality had a building constructed.
It is on temple grounds so the land cost nothing. The building is approximately 12 meters by 12 meters with one room and two toilets inside. It has ceramic tile flooring and a tile roof.
The municipality paid 3.5 million baht to the building contractor and he provided the materials. We know the building contractor was a distant relative of the village chief.
My experience building a much larger structure in the immediate vicinity is the building could not possibly have cost more than 800,000 baht to build, including materials. That means some 2.7 million was floating around out there somewhere in the political arena.
I am inclined to believe Magnum's estimate of 25-30% being stolen is somewhat under estimated.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:47 am on Feb. 17, 2012
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magnum
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Quote: from Valetta on 3:59 pm on Feb. 17, 2012
... while Thai corruption is obviously not quantified to International GAAP Standards, the evidence gathered from private sector Thai companies that PAY the bribes is that from 25-40% of funds for Thai government programs is siphoned-off as official graft... and, these figures exclude policy graft.
… (jeez, I really cannot believe you did not see this one coming, Professor … I am disappointed).
(1) Thai Chamber of Commerce – 30-40% graft
“According to Vichai, approximately 30 to 40 percent of the total value of government procurement projects had gone into corruption, amounting to more than 100 billion baht of annual wastage.” – http://www.trust.org/trustlaw/news/thailand-steps-up-anti-corruption-drive/
(2) University of Thai Chamber of Commerce – 25-30% graft
“Thanavath Phonvichai, director of the Thai Chamber of Commerce University's Economic and Business Forecasting Centre, said corruption in Thailand was getting worse. It had caused huge losses on each project from the government and private sector. The average loss due to graft had jumped from 10-15 per cent of a project's value to 25-30 per cent.” – http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Anti-corruption-campaign-is-both-timely-necessary-30175226.html
(3) Thai Federation of Industry – 30% graft
“The Thai Federation of Industry (TFI) reports in the Bangkok Post that “businesses can be asked to kick back up to 30% of contract values to state officials”.” – http://thailawandpolicy.wordpress.com/2011/06/12/thailand%E2%80%99s-30-graft-tax/
(4) TCC Corruption Situation Index – 25-30% graft
Some 82% of respondents with business operations related to the government said they had to pay extra money to civil servants and politicians at the amount of more than 25% of the budget - related mostly to durable goods, land, buildings and other investment projects. Ms Sauwanee said the additional payment was 25-30% of the government's fiscal budget, which translates to 170-200 billion baht of corrupt money a year or 1.5% to 2% of GDP.
(5) The Thai Development Research Institute cites similar figures, but I cannot find their citation just now... you can disqualify that one because my say-so does not rise to your apparently strict evidentiary standards.
(6) Anecdotally, a friend working for a subsidiary of one of the large Thai-listed contractors doing a lot of public civil projects said they are now no-bidding most government projects … he reports corrupt government officials scraping 5-10% of public works projects could be accommodated in their budgets, but when they began exceeding 20% several years ago, they walked.
… you can disqualify that last one, too, because you believe I am a liar.
... spirited debates regarding differences with my opinion... no problem... I will shoot no messenger... but, I will abide no accusations that I am a liar... and that, Professor, is how you pissed me off.
... you did not merely"suggest" my figures are an invention, as you restated... you all but called me a liar: "Magnum,your statement that "25-30% of all public expenditure is swept directly into corrupt Thai politicians` pockets" was an invention, based entirely on your very jaundiced view of Thai society,revealed again and again in your posts,was it not?"
... you misjudged me, Professor... again... while I let pass previous unfair accusations, I am holding you accountable on this one.
... you are entitled to your opinion, but as far as you are from Thailand, with apparently limited 'touch-and-go' experiences here, Professor Valetta, you are in a vacuum perhaps better suited for academia... you sure don't 'get' real Thailand, much less my measure.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 12:05 pm on Feb. 17, 2012
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bkkz
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#3 was pointing to this Bangkok Post article:
Procurement focus of anti-graft drive
Source: BangkokPost
State procurement will be the top priority on the watch list of the 23 private organisations that have formed the new Anti-Corruption Network (ACN).
At their first formal meeting yesterday, members urged the private sector to play a role in closely monitoring government organisations such as the Finance Ministry and the Office of the Public Sector Development Commission.
"Government procurement is an important source of corruption, but we also have to look at ourselves," said Sompol Kiatphaibul, chairman of the Stock Exchange of Thailand, comparing the issue to the chicken-or-egg dilemma.
"There are people who say that if the private sector doesn't bribe government officials, how can they accept [money]? But on the other hand, the private sector is saying that if you (the government) weren't receiving bribes, how would I be able to give you the money? This is something we will also look into as to who is right and wrong."
Kriengkrai Thiennukul, the deputy secretary-general of the Federation of Thai Industries, said businesses could help in determining the appropriateness of reference prices for state projects.
While electronic auctions are supposed to improve transparency, they are the last stage in the procurement process, he noted. Corruption starts from project conception, so the whole process needs to be reconsidered from the start.
The FTI sees corruption as damaging the competitiveness of business because it creates huge amounts of false costs, said Mr Kriengkrai.
Anecdotal evidence gathered by the FTI from members suggests that businesses can be asked to kick back up to 30% of contract values to state officials.
Khunying Jada Wattanasiritham, vice-chairman of the Thai Institute of Directors, said 49 leading companies had expressed their determination to fight corruption. "We will set up curricula for business leaders so that each company can implement measures to fight corruption by using examples from other countries," she said.
Dusit Nontanakorn, chairman of the Thai Chamber of Commerce (TCC) and the Board of Trade, said Thailand should follow the example of Hong Kong.
"If we don't start today, there will be no map of Thailand left. Can we stop paying respect to those who are rich but cheat, and start to wai those who are poor but honest?" said Mr Dusit, who was appointed chairman of the ACN, wbhich plans to meet monthly.The chamber recently created a corruption situation index (CSI), which it intends to update every six months to gauge the attitudes of respondents toward corruption and the effectiveness of measures to stop improper practices.
In the first survey in December last year, businesspeople showed more awareness of the issue than the general population, while government officials ranked lowest in awareness, said Sauwanee Thairungroj, vice-president for research at the University of the Thai Chamber of Commerce.
The first CSI, based on interviews with 1,200 respondents, was set at 3.5 on a scale of 10, with 10 being least corrupt, indicating a serious condition. Surprisingly, though, 31% of the respondents said corruption was not a problem that directly affected them.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 12:18 pm on Feb. 17, 2012
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China Sailor
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Waiting for your apology to magnum, Valetta...
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:26 pm on Feb. 17, 2012
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Valetta
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There are 2 issues here.
(1) Whether there is any reliable evidence to substantiate the statement "25-30% of all public expenditure is swept directly into corrupt Thai politicians pockets" and
(2) was I justified in accusing Magnum of inventing that statement.
So far as (1) is concerned none of the references cited by Magnum in his last post(nor what has been contributed by other Forum members) in any way establish that "Thai politicians "(who Magnum said were "elected officials" in his post of 6 Feb) have pocketed any particular percentage of public expenditure,let alone 25-30%.
What the references say is that public moneys are being corruptly pocketed by a whole range of persons not just politicians.They include civil servants,contractors,and developers.
None of the references, nor any of the posts of Forum members,are able to cite any hard evidence of actual percentages.They all rely on anectdotal statements,or someone`s opinion based on what that person has observed in a particular case involving corruption which is then assumed to apply to every other case of corruption.
Percentages of up to 40% or more are cited,but again without any hard evidence that they apply across the board.
So far as (2) is concerned in my initial post of the 6 Feb I agreed with Magnum that nobody seriously doubted that there was widespread corruption in Thailand,but I doubted whether anyone could make an accurate estimate of how much Thai politicians were pocketing,because it was unlikely any reliable records would ever be kept.I invited Magnum to provide reliable evidence to sustantiate that Thai politicians pocketed 25-30% of public expenditure.
When by the 11 Feb there was no response from Magnum(although he had posted in other threads between the 6 and 11 Feb) I thought it was reasonable to suggest that he had invented the claim because of his dislike of Thai society revealed repeatedly in his posts in this Forum.
When Magnum did respond on the 17 Feb he made no attempt to give any evidence for his claim.Instead while agreeing he disliked Thai society,he attacked me for suggesting he might be guilty of invention.
As Kaymanx has pointed out Magnum did in fact in his initial post of 6 Feb source the claim to "the private Thai consortium created to fight Thai official corruption",and that therefor there was no basis for my suggestion Magnum had invented it.I accept Kaymanx`s criticism,but does this mean Magnum deserves an apology as his very good friend China Sailor asks?
Well I make no apology for suggesting Magnum`s jaundiced view of Thai society does predispose him to accepting without reliable evidence what anyone claims is bad about Thailand.Indeed such is the depth of his anti Thai bias I have little doubt he would invent whatever served to reinforce that bias.
However,it is apparent for the reason Kaymanx gives that I was wrong to suggest the claim under discussion was an invention of Magnum,and I withdraw that suggestion,and apologize for making it.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:28 am on Feb. 18, 2012
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expatchuck
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Quote: from Valetta on 3:28 pm on Feb. 18, 2012
...Indeed such is the depth of his anti Thai bias I have little doubt he would invent whatever served to reinforce that bias.
What you are saying with this statement is Magnum didn't lie about this particular issue but he will lie if it benefits his position.
I have no dog in this fight but your choice of words could be put to better use.
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 3:57 am on Feb. 18, 2012
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magnum
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Quote: from Valetta on 3:28 pm on Feb. 18, 2012
... oh, my! … really hard to believe this guy... still, very nice to hear from you Professor Valetta.
… let’s continue to my closing arguments, counsellor … and to show what a good sport I am, I’ll even accept that you frame the arguments, as re-stated below:
… issue (1) … “whether there is any reliable evidence to substantiate [Magnum’s] statement “25-30% of all public expenditure is swept directly into corrupt Thai politicians pockets”
... Professor, merely dismissing my published citations as not meeting your standards is the weakest of arguments, and an impotent riposte … you HAVE no argument... this is called... a retreat.
... the Australian evidentiary rules you expect are plainly silly in a world (Thailand) that must to you be quite foreign... you, Professor, want to engage an argument based on 'lawfulness' in an interminably corrupt nation where the preponderance of evidence rising to your Western standard is largely non-existent.
... (your ludicrous view here belies the real depth in your lack of a PRACTICAL understanding of Thailand... which is one of my recurring points … that you appear an innocent here).
... I’ll take my chances and submit my case to the 'Court of Public Opinion' … assuming a jury of MY peers (the legal venue IS Thailand, after all) ; not YOUR peers, who I suspect are but armchair Thai enthusiasts in AUS who beat their thangs each night, straining to images on the Internet of nubile, sexy Thais, like a bunch of red-assed baboons feverishly masturbating to the All Night Banana Channel.
… so … BKK Forum members … how says the jury? … is my argument, that 25-30% of all public expenditures are swept into corrupt Thai politicians pockets, convincing? … (see evidence cited 5 posts above, by magnum, posted at 1:05 am on Feb. 18, 2012).
… and, issue (2) … “was [Professor Valetta] justified in accusing Magnum of inventing that statement [that 25-30% of Thai public expenditures are stolen by politicians]” … e.g., I lied.
… your resignation (posted above), Professor Valetta, and apology (however brittle) are accepted … thank you.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 4:46 am on Feb. 18, 2012
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madfrog
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Politicians are corrupt worldwide
They have the legal power and cover their evil actions most of the time, but yet still get caught from time to time (and after a parody of justice get amnesty)
So knowing how corrupt thailand is, do I believe that Thai politicians are corrupt and pocket as much as they can?
Y E S
Do I need to see any proof or charts?
N O
This is only my humble opinion, I never had the pleasure to meet bro Magnum or Valetta
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 5:24 am on Feb. 18, 2012
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