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S M E G M A
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Funny how Alan argues about the dissolution of the party when that is one thing all sides in Thailand have ignored. Their complaints are not about the party dissolution. They didn't care about that. They just formed a new one.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:18 am on May 5, 2010
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Mr Alan
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Quote: from koolbreez on 4:06 am on May 5, 2010
You crack me up...lolol. Thaksin was thrown out of office under laws from the 1997 constitution, not new retroactive laws...lolol. He was convicted of corruption, and abuse of power, by his own court while his brother-in-law was PM.
He came into power by buying votes (the actual handing out of cash to a voter), illegal under every Democratic country in the world, even Thailand, under old laws.
You seem to feel that only those that actually handed out the cash should be held responsible, and he should still be in office because of their actions. It wasn't just a few radicals, it was widespread throughout all of NorthEastern Thailand.
I never said that Thaksin was convicted of a law enforced retroactively. You should read more carefully what I post. I never said Thaksin should be allowed to be PM again. All I said is that he was removed via a military coup as a result of the yellow shirts occupying the airport a couple of years ago, which has set up the current situation that Thailand is in. I also said that any individuals who break the law should be held accountable, but that I disagree that an entire political party should be banned (unless they advocate the violent overthrow of the government). But I am skeptical about some of the criminal accusations, and I have even heard that those in power now are being accused of crimes as a pre-text for another possible coup.
I have to laugh at your use of ideology, when in fact it has nothing to do at all in how Thaksin came into power, and how he left power. He is still playing the same game trying to get back the money that was confiscated from his corruption, and still trying to get back into power, but you seem to think that is ok. It's almost like you support corruption, when if fact he was convicted under old laws of corruption, and abuse of power.......lolol.
Every executive in his party knew what was going on, yet they turned a blind eye. Are they guiltless?.lololol. You seem to think so. The election commission, under old laws, felt differently than you, and found them all guilty, banned them from politics for 5 years, and disbanded their party. Afterall without any executives there is no party.
Your views foster the continuation of corruption, and I don't agree with them plain, and simple.
I guess your main problem in understanding what I am saying is that you assume I have a ideology. Other than preferring democracy to military coups resulting from massive demonstrations at the airport or the shopping malls. I don't have any ideology (at least not one that has anything to do with this subject). As previously explained, from a purely political policy point of view, I would probably side with Thaksin's opposition more often than not. However, I do believe that Thailand would be better served by a democracy, and if voters have a problem with a candidate they can express that at the polls rather than precipitating military coups because of demonstrations in the streets or at the airport.
The end does not justify the means. No matter how corrupt Thaksin is, dispensing with democracy is not the proper solution. I would support the demand that Thailand have fresh elections and that democracy be restored, and the military take a back seat in deciding who will run the country.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 12:31 pm on May 5, 2010
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Mr Alan
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Quote: from S M E G M A on 10:18 am on May 5, 2010
Funny how Alan argues about the dissolution of the party when that is one thing all sides in Thailand have ignored. Their complaints are not about the party dissolution. They didn't care about that. They just formed a new one.
I don't know why you think it is funny that I mention that, because banning of political parties seems to be the main obsession of many others on this forum (banning the old Thaksin party or any new one crated to replace the old one). I just want new elections to let the voters decide who will be in Parliament, and then Parliament will decide who will form the government, rather than letting the military decide.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 12:38 pm on May 5, 2010
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Kaymanx
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While democracy may not require political parties to choose their candidates by a democratic process, it is thro suppression of inner party democracy that political parties perpetuate their domination and control by one person. The practice of democracy itself varies among different regions and the goose and the gander often do not share a taste for the same sauce. In the USA a president cannot contest more than two terms but this is not a requirement in many other countries. But it is the democratic process within parties that, to voters, provides the “checks and balances” necessary to ensure cleaner functioning.
What I tried to say is that, if party members had themselves acted proactively to eject a criminal leader in time they would have saved their party and their country. They should have known this more than anyone else for it was always a given that if the faltering democratic institutions in Thailand did not work the army would willy nilly step in. That is not to justify the coup as much as to fault the party (that won a landslide victory) for its brazen acts of corruption that saw it wantonly waste a golden opportunity. You need to keep in mind that this is a place where the army has historically been lurking in the shadows and mere technical rigidity about democracy will not achieve anything if parties do not ACT in the interest of democracy.
From a rigid technical PoV, you may argue about his “democratic” rights not to be thrown out ahead of time but the reality – even until the present moment -- is that these are actually the other “checks and balances” in the Thai system that get activated when political parties fail. By aiding and abetting in his crimes it was his party that let down the Thai state by failing to stand up and act democratically.
Clearly the turmoil never was, and still is not, about democracy. If it was, the party that won a landslide would have set about its many tasks and challenges of uplifting the rural economy with seriousness and care.
I would also take you back to China Sailor's observations on the need for grassroots reform and developmental measures aimed at the poor, uneducated and neglected segments of society. In other words, the need for inclusivity. The fact is that these issues have never been expressly put out to the people, or to the world at large, by the reds -- and instead have been assumed by the western media to be the bone of contention. That is a clear indication that development was never the main goal; it was only another tool or pretext to grab power and pelf. And the opportunity was 2010 when elections were anyway scheduled in nine months.
Isn’t it an odd coincidence that the reds’ vicious street rally comes so close on the heels of the court ordering the freezing of half his ill-gotten assets ? That seems to have been the proverbial last straw. So long as he had his money there was apparently no real panic from his side. But all hell broke loose when that financial bastion was attacked.
The issues are far too "local," far too agenda-driven. To dissect and view them through foreign eyes, and to use rigid text-book standards of democracy to judge and label regional situations, is to simply perpetuate and compound the turmoil.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 2:30 pm on May 5, 2010
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nohomesteaders
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Quote: from Mr Alan on 12:31 am on May 6, 2010
All I said is that he was removed via a military coup as a result of the yellow shirts occupying the airport a couple of years ago, which has set up the current situation that Thailand is in.
FYI, the Military coup was September 19, 2006, the Airport seizure was November 27, 2008.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:37 pm on May 5, 2010
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Mr Alan
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Quote: from nohomesteaders on 2:37 pm on May 5, 2010
FYI, the Military coup was September 19, 2006, the Airport seizure was November 27, 2008.
Thanks for the correcton. I had forgotten that they yellow shirts were protesting the new elections where Thaksin's party won again.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:33 pm on May 5, 2010
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koolbreez
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The yellow shirts demonstrated when the first thing the newly elected (again the buying of votes) goverment did, even before they filled the primary cabinet posts in their government, was to try, and change the laws to get Thaksin exonorated, and back in power. Again the election was found to be fraudulent, under the old laws, and the PM was thrown out, all the executives were found guilty of complacency, and the party was disbanded. Thaksin's brother-in-law was PM at this time.
Thaksin was technically thrown out by the election commission for voter fraud (vote buying, and turning the voting booths around so his people could see how those that took the money voted, eliminating the secret vote element. illegal under old laws, and photographed). The coup just made sure he stayed out, after he appointed himself caretaker PM until the next elections, so technically all the coup did was enforce the election commission's decision. The coup did not throw out a legally elected official. They just made sure an illegal one would stay out.
After this the military formed a government, had a legal vote on changes to the 1997 constitution closing the loopholes that allowed Thaksin to appoint those that were supposed to oversee his actions, and held new elections. Under those elections Thaksin's backed party was not able to gain a majority, so through a coalition of parties the current PM was voted in. This was done under the same system that put Thaksin in power, minus the widespread vote buying, although there was a small number of MP's convicted of election fraud, and a few by-elections were held to replace them. This current government was voted in by the people.
Thaksin has done everything he can to try to discredit, disrupt, and create chaos for the current government. He's never for a minute let this government govern. He's even went as far as trying to create a war with Cambodia, but I'm sure that part is way past your scope of understanding.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:21 pm on May 5, 2010
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Mr Alan
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Quote: from koolbreez on 6:21 pm on May 5, 2010
Thaksin has done everything he can to try to discredit, disrupt, and create chaos for the current government. He's never for a minute let this government govern.
That sounds like what the yellow shirts did a year and half ago. Where do you think the red shirts got the idea from?
Unfortunately, as noted by others, Thailand does not have an independent judiciary, so trumped up charges are easy to come by, especially after a military coup. That is not to say Thaksin was not guilty of corruption, but there has been a lack of justice concerning many others who have been accused in the witch hunts. I am sure that all of the 5 million people Stalin murdered after he took power where duly convicted as well.
As I noted previously, charges are being considered against the current PM (trumped up also) in case the military decides to step in again. I am for an end to illegal disruptions and occupations by both sides, yellow and red, and to a restoration of the democratic process. I am for Thailand.
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 7:41 pm on May 5, 2010
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expatchuck
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Quote: from koolbreez on 3:48 pm on May 4, 2010
There have been 2 elections since the 2006 coup. Both elections were found to be corrupt, and not just by one individual acting on his own. The whole of the party was found to have committed election fraud, hence all of the executives of the party were banned for 5 years from taking part in future elections. Without any executives the party is disbanded.
In both cases those elected didn't even take the time to fill their cabinet posts before they were trying to get laws changed to exonorate Thaksin for abuse of power, and corruption charges. His conviction on the first charge was carried out while his brother-in-law was PM.
Thaksin was first elected because he took vote buying to a new level. Before he ran for office the going rate of buying a vote was bt100 - bt200. With many voters taking money from both sides then voting for who the village chief told them to vote for. Thaksin came in, and set the level of vote buying at bt500, no other candidate could compete with that amount of money, not counting the amount that went to the village chiefs, so his MP's were elected because of direct vote buying. Nothing Democratic about it at all.
One element about Thaksin's supposed helping of the poor was his low interest loans to the different tambons. Those loans came due last year. Thaksin would have still been in office, and the tambons were not able to repay the loans. Thaksin, being the good businessman he is would have foreclosed on those loans, thus putting the majority of the land in the NorthEast under the control of the government. Then he would have leased out the land to the farmers at a fee that would keep them poor. You can not compete on the world market if your labor costs go up. That's pure business understanding.
The current government forgave those loans last year, so the farmers wouldn't loose their land. Was Thaksin really looking out for the poor? He gave them shiny baubles, but kept them poor. He gave children computers for school, but didn't put in the electric infrastucture so they could use them. He put in the bt30 health care plan, but didn't upgrade the clinics, or hospitals so the people could take advantage of it. I know people that died waiting in line to see a doctor.
He reminded me of the traders that bought Manhatton Island from the Indians for a handful of shiny beads.
There can be absolutely no defense for the principles of Democracy when you take into consideration how Thaksin came into power, and how he was taken out of power.
Technically he was just the caretaker PM, that he appointed himself as, while new elections were being scheduled because of wide spread election fraud, when the coup happened. He was not the elected PM when he was eliminated from the scene by the coup.
Under Thai law he has to physically be in court to answer the other charges that are still hanging over his head. 3 involve the airport, where it is questionable about his actual involvement in the corruption. The other charge involves the loan to Myanmar to upgrade their telecommunications infrastructure. The parlement approved an amount of, I believe it was 300millionUS. Thaksin on his own raised the loan amount to $600millionUS, and added the stipulation that they could only buy product from Shin corporation for the upgrades. This charge is the serious one because it is his signature on all the paperwork approving these loans. He could face 20 years to life for this charge alone, and it's an airtight case.
That is why he doesn't come back, and lead his supposed people. He comes back, and all the truths about how he gained the name "square Face" come to light.
He took corruption to a whole new level, and to let slide that element as insignificant is totally un-Democratic. To acknowledge that he was freely elected is idiotic.
Koolbreez:
This is not a spelling critique, other than to ask where the last "e" is in your name.
I have asked my wife to check around and see what the history of vote buying is here in our little village. We are located between Udorn and Loei and have a village population of some 6,000 people.
My wife, her mother and various neighbor ladies have said when Thaksin's party was up for election, the going rate for votes was 100-200 per vote. Several of them said his canvassers got paid 500 baht but kept all of it except for the 100-200 baht paid each voter.
The voters in this small village never individually received 500 baht from Thaksin's party for their votes.
Since I have lived here (18 months) there has been one election for District Mayor. The voters did receive 500 baht for each vote once they agreed to vote for him. I have also determined the District Mayor is happy to give a person a job in his municipality after they pay him an examination fee of 50,000 baht. Being a District Mayor has its perks as well.
Our village chief only pays 100 baht per vote since his income isn't supplemented with very many job openings.
Your statement that Thaksin's MPs were elected due to vote buying has no significance in Thailand since EVERY candidate for ANY office must pay voters to vote. This was going on long before Thaksin and will continue long after he is gone.
The opposition party to Thaksin was also buying votes at the same time and at the same rate. The ladies said they voted for Thaksin because they felt he could be relied on to help out the village.
I have been unable to find out much information about the loans you claim his government made to the various Tamboons. Thaksin did declare a three year moratorium on bank loans. That moratorium did not apply to monthly installment loans, such as car or house loans but applied to term loan principal only. The borrowers still had to pay the bank's interest on the loans. That moratorium has now expired.
Is this the plan you were talking about?
Sorry to have come to the party so late but my wife kept forgetting to get a gaggle together to ask the questions. That's the poop from our little corner of the world.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 12:44 am on May 6, 2010
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PussyLover 69
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Report from Bangkok Post dated Thursday 6 May 2010 :-
Dissolution date on September 15-30: PM
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Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva on Thursday confirmed the dissolution of Parliament to take place between September 15 and September 30, paving way for the November 14 poll.
Abhisit said he did not mention the dissolution date as part of his road map for reconciliation because he thought the timing for dissolution was evident by the poll date.
Based on the election law, a snap election must take place within 45 to 60 days following the dissolution of Parliament.
In regard to speculation about the Democrat split on the road map, the prime minister said he had not come into conflict with his party chief adviser Chuan Leekpai.
The Democrats are scheduled today to debate the road map.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 3:44 am on May 6, 2010
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