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Valetta
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"Each country is at a different stage on the curve.....
Just let them do it their own way,at their own pace."
(Kaymanx)
This implies that there is some sort of political elevator to a democratic heaven,and it is inevitable that,so long as a country is permitted an undisturbed occupation of the elevator, democracy will happen.
It also assumes that any country,given the chance,will choose democracy.
Although I agree with Winston Churchill that democracy is the least worst system of government yet devised by man,I do not think there is any inevitability about its acceptance in any country.
In many Muslim countries democracy is associated with Western immorality,and the fear that its acceptance will lead impressionable youth away from religion.Thus in Saudi Arabia,and most of the Gulf states, there is just a democratic veneer under which the old non democratic power structures remain dominant.
Iran has as its head of state its supreme religious leader who has an effective veto over any laws Iran`s popularly elected legislature might pass.A council of clerics decides who may,and may not,stand for election to Iran`s parliament.There is a Revolutionary Guard which operates as a religious police enforcing its interpretation of Islam,often with force,on all Iranians whether or not they are Muslims.
Thus although Iran holds elections,has a democratically elected legislature,it is not a democracy which would be recognised as such by western democracies.Rather it is a theocracy in which western democratic ideals of freedom of speech,and the free interchange of ideas, are subordinated to what an elite determines their interpretation of Islam requires.
Yet it may well be that a majority of Iranians supports this Theocracy because of a genuine belief that Islam would be threatened by a democracy in the western mould.
In Iraq Sunni Muslims fear that democracy will usher in a dictatorship of Shiite Muslims who they despise as not true Muslims.
It is not so much the absence of an educated population,or a sophisticated capitalist system,which makes it difficult for a democracy to gain a foothold,but established non democratic institutions supported by powerful forces such as religion,or simply the presence of a wealthy minority whose long hold on power has enabled them to control the army,and police.
A dictatorial state tightly controls what its population is allowed to learn,and the extent to which its economy can operate free of restrictions,because it correctly understands the threat that an absence of control in these areas represents to its existence.
Thus in many cases it is not a matter of allowing things to take their course with the inevitable result that a democratic state will emerge.History has shown that a bloody revolution is usually required to overturn an established regime but,even if successful,the revolution does not always lead to a western style democracy.
The spectacularly unsuccessful efforts of the USA in Vietnam,El Salvador,Chile,and Iraq,to bring about by force regime change, does not suggest that outside intervention is the way to go either because those interventions certainly did not result in the establishment of any liberal democracy.
The best approach is probably to demonstrate by way of example what a liberal democracy can give its citizens by comparison with an undemocratic regime,and thereby create a demand for change within the undemocratic regime that produces, over time,either preferably progressive reform,or less desirably an internally based revolution.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 1:37 am on May 11, 2010
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S M E G M A
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QQ your quote is false. Haam Sup did not say what you say he said.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 3:03 am on May 11, 2010
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expatchuck
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Quote: from quack quack on 2:48 pm on May 11, 2010
"... there have been more Iraqis killed in Iraq after the imposition of saint Duyya’s benevolence than in the entire Saddam era..."
Besides the quote being incorrectly attributed to Haam Sup, the above quoted portion of QQ's post is also a blatant untruth.
Most knowledgable estimates of deaths under Saddam Hussein's regime prior to the Iraqi war in 2003 are in the 800,000 to over 1 million range.
Iraqbodycount.org counts 104,826 deaths by violent means from the start of the war through 4 May 2010. Many of these deaths were Iraqi on Iraqi.
This might help open QQ's eyes, if he is willing to look at it.
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_mass_graves.pdf
His statement, as are most of his posts, political nonsense that he cannot back up with facts and refuses to debate on the Z Forum.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 5:11 am on May 11, 2010
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Kaymanx
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Quote: from Valetta on 1:37 pm on May 11, 2010
"Each country is at a different stage on the curve.....
Just let them do it their own way,at their own pace."
(Kaymanx)
This implies that there is some sort of political elevator to a democratic heaven,and it is inevitable that,so long as a country is permitted an undisturbed occupation of the elevator, democracy will happen.
Sorry, but I thought I was very clear when I qualified that with the condition that "if the ideals (of freedom and happiness) are pursued by the state I would reckon that the people are living in a progressive country." Your examples of Iran, Saudi Arabia and many other Muslim states do not fit what I said.
My statement that each country is at a different stage on the curve refers to their individual ways of pursuing that common ideal of freedom and happiness for its people. Now all states perforce will claim that their ideal is happiness for the people. But freedom ? There are a lot many states -- such as the ones you mentioned -- for whom freedom is not an ideal. I am not talking about them here.
I am concerned with those that WANT their people to be free -- and there are several examples in Asia -- but who, because of their ground realities (some of those realities would seem daunting), would rather do it in a local, homegrown way, rather than following a quickfire spectacular style of democratisation to please western institutions and media. These are the countries where it is often necessary to take one step backward to please certain constituents, for every two you take forward. This situation is often labelled "messy." But it is reality. It is the practical way of achieving a goal that both people and governments "want" but which, for reasons including poverty, illiteracy, orthodoxy, cannot be accelerated or set to any rigid time frame.
Why DO these nations want democracy ? It is because it was NOT thrust on them although one might argue, a la QQ, that the west supported them through investments or strategic geopolitical mapping. It must be remembered that many other nations similarly supported and invested in by the west have failed miserably, or ended up as banana republics to be toyed with by the same investors.
The reason the states WANT democracy is that they have "chosen" it as the best way of life. Not all of them agree with Winston Churchill that democracy is the "least worst" system. On the contrary they would give it higher ranking and argue that democracy is the "only" way. Starvation and floods and grinding poverty notwithstanding these governments do not sacrifice freedom. If you look closely you will see that they renew their efforts to free the "bonded" sections of the population through funding, health and education initiatives.
For these nations to succeed they willy nilly have to make sacrifices, by way of delaying some objectives, keeping checks on capitalist prosperity (ironical as that may be), sometimes soft-pedalling action against corruption (complex deal that), sometimes banning books or works of art just so the flock is kept together, and so on that, to the western eye would seem just too "messy" and "chaotic." There is method in the madness. In Thailand they do this same thing the Thai way.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 1:55 pm on May 11, 2010
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haam sup
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Quote: from S M E G M A on 3:03 pm on May 11, 2010
QQ your quote is false. Haam Sup did not say what you say he said.
Thanks. Seems like an honest mistake, though.
This has become one of the most interesting threads I have seen here in a LONG time. A lot of eloquence, and a lot of demonstrated knowledge of world affairs...
All I can say is that I believe the solution will, and should be, uniquely Thai.
hs
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:16 pm on May 11, 2010
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Oz
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Quote: from Valetta on 12:00 pm on May 9, 2010
Ok.Name a benevolent dictator who actually ruled for the benefit of the country as a whole(that is the majority) as distinct from his family,friends,cronies,class,or political party.
Lee Kuan Yue! Yea, he probably helped his family out BUT he made sure the Country came first. Singapore works, look around at the other nearby Asia Countries, here is a resource poor nation where you can drink the Water, trust the Banks & still "play"!
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 1:20 am on May 12, 2010
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magnum
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Quote: from Oz on 1:20 pm on May 12, 2010
Lee Kuan Yue! Yea, he probably helped his family out BUT he made sure the Country came first. Singapore works...
... probabaly as good an example as there is... the Chinese seem to understand the darkness lurking in their soulless selves ("man as inherently evil," an entirely new thread)... Singapore's leaders seem to have found the balance between freedom as we define it down in South Texas, and the need to smack the living shit out of the oligarchs who would overpower and indenture the larger population, as in ostensible democracies as Thailand.
... not my cup of tea, as I'd rather the freedom to sit on my back porch, knock-off cold Lone Stars, listen to John Lee Hooker and shoot armadillos out of the garden in the evenings... but, if you HAVE to live in a country with less than 100% freedom, SIN is where I would cast my vote.
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:54 pm on May 12, 2010
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China Sailor
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Quote: from magnum on 11:54 am on May 13, 2010
... not my cup of tea, as I'd rather the freedom to sit on my back porch, knock-off cold Lone Stars, listen to John Lee Hooker and shoot armadillos out of the garden in the evenings... but, if you HAVE to live in a country with less than 100% freedom, SIN is where I would cast my vote.
Funny, just last night I was sitting on my porch, drinking Tiger, listening to Willy Nelson, and knocking off moths with my bug zapper.
In reality Singapore is no different from Austin. Even in Texas's liberal stronghold there are out-of-bounds markers that you can not cross without incurring the attention of the law.... Same Same in Singapore.
I rarely see a policeman outside of his aircon station. I pretty much do as I want and I have had no trouble in the last 8 years.
There are a lot of myths about Singapore out there but in reality here kids drop their McDonald's wrappers on the street, people double park on roads, old Chinese dudes piss in the corner of elevators, and none of them get penalized unless there happens to be a traffic or environmental warden walking by.
There is one interesting law in Singapore, and that is that you can be fined for having standing water on your property. This is to prevent the breeding of mosquitoes. I was fined once for having standing water on my property.... in Baton Rouge, Louisiana...
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 11:40 pm on May 12, 2010
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expatchuck
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Quote: from magnum on 10:54 am on May 13, 2010
... probabaly as good an example as there is... the Chinese seem to understand the darkness lurking in their soulless selves ("man as inherently evil," an entirely new thread)... Singapore's leaders seem to have found the balance between freedom as we define it down in South Texas, and the need to smack the living shit out of the oligarchs who would overpower and indenture the larger population, as in ostensible democracies as Thailand.
... not my cup of tea, as I'd rather the freedom to sit on my back porch, knock-off cold Lone Stars, listen to John Lee Hooker and shoot armadillos out of the garden in the evenings... but, if you HAVE to live in a country with less than 100% freedom, SIN is where I would cast my vote.
This post brought tears to my eyes, being an old West Texas sort of person.
I was sitting on my front porch drinking Chang, NOT listening to the Dixie Chicks, while trying to knock motorcyclists down with a sling shot. 
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 12:02 am on May 13, 2010
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