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Hermanolobo
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Arcadius-
I think Thailand misses the 'Arcadius' Website of news and views !
Would be nice to see one some day ?
Is it just possible that these articles are just a 'wind-up' and Mr Stickman has taken the bait?
I do find it strange that this girl 'Tanya' should air such views. On the other hand she may be sharp as a razor and noticed something most have missed ?
Her e-mail is at the bottom of the article so apparently she is not hiding behind anonymity?
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:58 am on Sep. 10, 2003
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hzink
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Quote: from Hermanolobo on 3:23 pm on Sep. 10, 2003
I remember being lectured by an American evangelical preacher about nudity in the crap film 'Fifth Element'(IMHO).
I ventured it should be called 'Filth Element' but I only pondered what would happen to this preachers attitude to nudity if he ever visited a European Art Gallery.
Good illustration - by the way, it's not a crap film, but a French film -- it's also one of those movies where you need to be familiar with French comic books (which I grew up on) to appreciate it. Otherwise, you can't 'get it' (not a rant, just a statement.
Besides, *WAHT* nudity in Fifth Element? Some evangelical jerk made a big deal out of THAT film? Precious.
European art galleries? Why go that far? Our Attorney General (who holds prayer vigils in his office every morning), was busy covering up the bosoms of the statue of Justicia in the Justice Dept. because she was (gasp) naked - which was more important to him than apprehending terrorists, I might add.
Moralism!
Harry
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 12:29 pm on Sep. 10, 2003
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Hermanolobo
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hzink-
Where was that?
I don't mind people having religion I just don't want their version of reality pushed at me. Maybe I am fed up with the Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door every year when they have their convention.
Off they go seling their version- But how do they know without me actually saying very much that I am not a Christian in the first place ??
I am as it happens but I have my own view of things which I would not run around pushing onto unsuspecting members of the public.
Anyway a beautiful naked young lady is nature's masterpiece why should seeing a film or painting of that be offensive ??
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 1:04 pm on Sep. 10, 2003
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Arcadius
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Anyway a beautiful naked young lady is nature's masterpiece why should seeing a film or painting of that be offensive?
Couldn't agree more. But isn't it odd that the Thais (who are generally so refreshingly unneurotic about sex), seem to be at one with the most abject Judaeo-Christian cripple on this?
I like the naked dancers because they are so aesthetically pleasing. Often just unbelievably perfect specimens of the human female form, and a sheer delight to behold.
But I'm not sure I find them especially alluring sexually, no matter how beautiful they are. To be perfectly honest, I find them more of a turn-on in their bikinis. The bikini is a very sexy garment. The only thing sexier, in my book, is the Vietnamese ao dai, and that would keep even Queen Victoria happy.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 1:21 pm on Sep. 10, 2003
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Holy Diver
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hzink -
"I'm not talking about American Entertainment (which is crap), I'm talking aboout American perceived 'culture', which is puritanical."
Yes, it is often true that, when compared to much of Europe, the culture in the US is more conservative. Puritanical? I think that is a pretty big exaggeration, but I recognize that especially within leftist European circles (the media and intellectual class) American is portrayed as puritanical. Never mind that this is basically a bunch of nonsense since US culture is awash in sexual imagery and themes. If you want "vice" and "sin", America has plenty opportunity to find and partake in it.
Get outside of Europe and you'll find that most of the world is far more traditional, embracing a considerably more conservative family oriented tradition (not that they necessarily adhere to it, but it is what is expoused). Infact, as I stated before, I suspect that much of the world believes America is over sexualized - not Puritanical.
And though I don't want to get started in on Europe, I'd take America's somewhat more traditional approach paired with free market economics any day over the European "God is dead" socialist model. I'll leave it at that since I am sure everyone has their own opinion and this is certainly not the sort of debate meant for this forum.
"When hosting a delegation middle-aged American politicians, you would not make Nana your first stop, most likely because they would want to hold a prayer breakfast, and then hang out in Church. "
Umm yeah? And? Are you honestly telling me that European politicians would choose Nana? And the European public would support this? Your dreaming. Why then is there not mini-Nana Plaza's cropping up all over the continent? Again, I recognize that, especially Western Europe is more secular than the US overall - but I don't think a Nana-type atmosphere for campaign meetings would go over well in most of Europe either. Incidentally, change happens everywhere, the pendulum always swings. Though I've stipulated that America is on the whole somewhat more conservative than Europe at this time (though by no means puritanical), eventually we could see a period of time where the US becomes more liberal and a backlash in Europe occurs that drives the continent to the right making it more traditional and conservative.
"Generally, since this entertainment is aiming for the lowest common denominator, that's usually what it hist, regardless of culture."
Nonsense. American entertainment is all about what sells, and basically ONLY about what sells. If the lowest common denominator is what sells then the free market will reward it. But make no mistake, if televised Bible hour repeated over and over again throughout prime time each and every evening would sell - US networks would be all too happy to televise only repeats of Bible hour. They don't, because their ratings would collapse - so much for the US being "puritanical".
Programming that does not rely on the free market is far, far more likely to be out of touch with the demands of the public. One only need look at the ratings for American public broadcasting to see this. And despite your assertions that the US is "puritanical", the American public gobbles up all the sex shows, films, music, websites, books, magazines they can. Sex sells, and huge numbers of Americans are buying.
HD
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 1:25 pm on Sep. 10, 2003
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haam sup
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HD,
Read your last post with interest.
It seems to me that using the media as a gauge of morals in the US is a flawed model, given the passivity of the activity. <- (unintended rhyme, wow!)
It's the old 'moral majority' argument in reverse: it sells, so it must reflect the majority.
I'm not buying it.
The puritanical nature of the mass of the US public manifests in behavior, not in speech. A certain hypocrisy exists in which there is a morbid fascination with the misdeeds/pecadillos of the high profile, media attended elite, but a derisive, self-righteous condemnation of peers engaging in the same behaviors.
People LIKE audacity, even in the face of immorality. They abhor timidity, and impotence, and are wholly intolerant of inconsequential people getting caught with their pants down.
By this measure, even Chewit has his fans, while the average punter is derided as a social misfit. Of the two, who is responsible for more human misery? The demolition of Soi 10 hurt more people, who could ill afford to be hurt, than 1000 punters short-tipping 1000 BGs.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that Chewit's role as super-pimp is hurting anyone, but he isn't Mother Theresa, either.
The point is that the media portrays a VERY distorted view of America. The family-oriented Europe that you mention exists in the middle of America, too. And the perception that the two coasts are Sodom and Gomorrah is an analog to the perception that Europeans appear to have of America.
I think there is a LOT more repression in the US, and like illegal drugs, the market is CREATED by this repression. The fact that the Constitution is invoked vigorously to protect the promotion of sexual material is a major reason why it exists. Otherwise, the 'moral majority' MIGHT crack down in a brutal, and self-righteousness driven bloodbath.
This growing split is a bad sign, IMO, and is WAY overdue for a correction. Note that MY use of the word 'correction' doesn't mean I welcome it. The embracing of conservatism in the US is the undercurrent of such a wave, and I hope I will not be here to experience the event.
I think the US is quite unreasonably puritanical/conservative, and at odds with itself on those issues.
hzink: "...it's not a crap film, but a French film..."
Uh, please explain the difference.. (OK, OK, just kidding...)
haam sup
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:40 pm on Sep. 10, 2003
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bucksfun
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It seems to me as a frequent visitor to LOS and soon to be resident, that the overt nature of the P4P business has got to the stage where it causes "decent" Thais serious embarrasment, and it is this which creates the climate in which the proposed changes become not only acceptable but actively popular to the thai electorate.
How many of us would be happy to have our nation portrayed as negatively as Thailand is for whatever the reasons. I have met many Thais who when abroad feel the need to act as role models to counteract the perceived slur on their national character which arises from the nudging and winking which accompanies most discussions of LOS in the west. As a patriotic people this must be hard to swallow, it is only a shame (in my own completely biased opinion) that many americans do not adopt a similar approach abroad, although it restores my faith in the US and the american people, to encounter as many americans I as have, who are sincerely embarassed at the "election" of George W.
There also appears to be a major dose of hypocrisy about the reaction to the planned changes (particularly in relation to visas etc). How many of those complaining have seen the kind of questioning that decent Thai women receive just to visit the US or EU for even a short period?
Personally having observed the behaviour of some of my fellow countrymen when in LOS it makes me profoundly embarrassed to be British sometimes, and a move towards "higher quality" tourists and farang residents could not only lift the image of Thailand as a country but also (maybe just maybe) lift the image (both inside and outside LOS) of those of us who choose to spend a portion of our lives there too.
There is more to life than the most overt kind of P4P, but then maybe the small minority (I hope) of contributors who seem unable to find their arse with both hands, would be unable to deal with the terrible challenge of making a few minutes additional effort to secure something which they deem it worthwhile to spend 12+ hours in flying time to experience.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 5:54 pm on Sep. 10, 2003
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Holy Diver
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haam sup -
Interesting post. I've had to read it a couple of times to digest all your points. I agree with some of your thoughts here, but on the whole I think we do indeed disagree on the fundamental issue of how conservative or puritanical America is.
"I think the US is quite unreasonably puritanical/conservative, and at odds with itself on those issues."
Compared to whom? We are just making the comparison to Europe yes? Certainly the US is not more puritanical than most of Central and South America where adherence to religion and the intolerance to homosexuals that follows has driven gay people to try to claim asylum in the US. America is certainly not more puritanical than say North Africa, Arabia and the Middle East - I am sure we'd agree here. Asia? Other than a few parts of South East Asia such as Thailand that has allowed an extensive P4P industry to openly flourish for generations, I rather think most of Asia observe more traditional "family values" than does America. Infact, I can think of few countries that value family LESS than the United States - where mobility and job opportunities have vastly reduced extended family living in the same house or even town.
Have you considered how much wealth plays into this equation? Were the American economy to fall into a state so many 3rd world countries find themselves in, do you really think "conservative/puritanicalism" would prevent huge increases in prostitution? I think one of the reasons most of America isn't regarded as ideal for the average sex tourist is simply because, well, were damn rich. There are far better options for American women. Hell, poor people in American often have cars, TV's, microwaves, big meals three times per day - on the whole I'd says Americans below the poverty line would be considered downright rich in many, many countries.
So in my view, poverty and a lack of opportunity has a tremendous impact on the P4P scene anywhere. Central and South America is a fairly traditional part of the world in many respects, yet because of a general lack of choices caused by underdeveloped and/or mismanaged economies - large numbers of women will find themselves prostituting themselves and society will, in some instances, tolerate it because the reaons are so clear.
"The puritanical nature of the mass of the US public manifests in behavior, not in speech. A certain hypocrisy exists in which there is a morbid fascination with the misdeeds/pecadillos of the high profile, media attended elite, but a derisive, self-righteous condemnation of peers engaging in the same behaviors."
Hmmm. Could you be refering to the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal here?
The gist I am getting out of reading your post is that people like to watch that which is regarded as abnormal or exciting because it is socially not accepted or unusual. It sounds like what your saying is sex sells so well precisely BECAUSE of the conservative/puritanical norm in the United States.
If this is your point, I would agree only to a certain extent. An example this line of reasoning would be, "Tell a kid not to look at or read something and he/she is sure to go right out and do it anyway, precisely because he/she was told not to".
Certainly this is true. However, I think it ceases to be true when the material is so overwhelmingly available. Americans are not flocking to sex and sexual themes because it is something they can't see everyday - they eat it up because it something they enjoy and are willing to pay for.
"It seems to me that using the media as a gauge of morals in the US is a flawed model, given the passivity of the activity."
Absolutely true. But no media accurately represents the public at large. Who wants to watch and listen to stories and music about average, everyday life? There is news for that, and the rest of the time people want to be entertained by what they are interested in. Sex is clearly something a hell of a lot of Americans are interested enough in to guarantee that the media gives Americans as a big a dose as possible.
"It's the old 'moral majority' argument in reverse: it sells, so it must reflect the majority."
Hmmm. I do actually think there is truth in it. The free market at work. It doesn't mean that Americans necessarily wish to reenact what they see on TV - but they sure get a kick out of watching.
"I think there is a LOT more repression in the US, and like illegal drugs, the market is CREATED by this repression."
Agreed. You'd probably be interested to know that I am actually against virtually ALL moral laws. I don't use drugs or gamble but I'd decriminalize both. Clearly this is a much bigger issue for another time.
"The fact that the Constitution is invoked vigorously to protect the promotion of sexual material is a major reason why it exists."
I can't agree with you here. The Constitution can be changed. It's been done plenty of times before. If the American public was really so puritanical that it wished to abolish porn, strip clubs, adult magazines, etc - they could easily vote for politicians that would support a Constitutional amendment to accomplish just that. The majority still rules supreme. No Constitution can stop the will of a large majority of any country.
"This growing split is a bad sign, IMO, and is WAY overdue for a correction."
Be interesting to know where your going with this. I too see a certain "correction" coming, but I think we are on somewhat different wavelengths on what is causing it. If you are suggesting that you think there will be some sort of rise of the conservative right wing in America, I would agree, but I suspect for different reasons. Personally, I think forcing the news media to compete in a true free marketplace has shattered the monopolies of news opinion previously held by the network news divisions. Outlets like Fox News draw viewership, and the other media either loses audience and demographic ratings or adjusts their programming to suit conservative audiences whom are simply more likely to be news junkies than liberals and centrists. So the environment America finds itself in is increasingly polarized and bitter. And the right has big money and access to the airwaves like never before. This is bound to create a serious clash of ideologies - and the "correction" of which you speak. This all began with Reagan's FCC eliminating the "Fairness Doctrine", and the effects will increasingly be felt rippling through American society.
"and I hope I will not be here to experience the event."
Interesting times ahead for sure. With the "war on terror" and an increasingly partisan press, the US is certainly at a crossroads. Especially if the Dem's put up an anti-war candidate in 04'. If that happens, I expect Bush will win in a crushing landslide (even if the polls indicate otherwise as they did with Reagan in 83' before the election) which will seal a Republican governing majority for potentially a generation.
Anyway, thanks for your response.
Imajika
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:03 pm on Sep. 10, 2003
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Deleted Member
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So,
Let us summarize this way.
Those who are concerned about the Farang-Thai way of life are concerned. BUT!! The thai ladies do not go away. They ae sstilll there.
THose who find that the liason between western man and Thai Lady has many avenues will still find a way:
bars, friends of friends, your business coleagues's sister/cousine,etc/, karaoke bar, hotel hostess, escorts. massages w/special masagesif you're a nice guy etc etc.
yes, Thai ladies want a GOOD western man today, 2003 and beyond Taksin 2008. I am so happy that there are Thai ladies, Taksin can't stop that. They love us if we do it right...!
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 6:05 pm on Sep. 10, 2003
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Mr Alan
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"The fact that the Constitution is invoked vigorously to protect the promotion of sexual material is a major reason why it exists."
I don't think that is exactly accurate. The US Supreme Court has ruled that pornography can be banned if it violates the standards of the community. The reason that pornography exists in the USA is that prosecutors are unable to get juries to agree that it violates community standards.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:31 pm on Sep. 10, 2003
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