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Holy Diver
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bucksfun -
Good post. Lots of good points here.
"How many of us would be happy to have our nation portrayed as negatively as Thailand is for whatever the reasons."
Totally agreed. At minimum most of us, seeing our own countries develop this reputation, would remove the foreigners from the P4P scene as much as possible. Most citizens of any country the world over are simply not going to tolerate, assuming they have any real choice in the matter, huge numbers of tourists coming to their land primarily for sex.
"although it restores my faith in the US and the american people, to encounter as many americans I as have, who are sincerely embarassed at the "election" of George W."
Your gonna get on the wrong side of a shade under 50% of Americans for statements like that. I am not necessarily a big fan of Jr. Bush, but I certainly didn't like Gore either. I am more of a libertarian than anything, but I can certainly understand why so many Americans prefer economic conservative Republicans over social welfare Democrats. Besides, the media elite portray all Republicans as "dumb" in Europe. They did it to Reagan, Ford and Eisenhower - not surprise they do it to Bush. In the US, Bush is still quite popular and I'd bet he wins in a landslide come 04' assuming the Democrats put up Howard Dean against him.
"How many of those complaining have seen the kind of questioning that decent Thai women receive just to visit the US or EU for even a short period?"
So agree with you here. The hypocracy is breathtaking.
"Personally having observed the behaviour of some of my fellow countrymen when in LOS it makes me profoundly embarrassed to be British......."
Don't sweat it. You Brits do have your share of the football hooligan types, but for the most part I have gotten on well with just about all the British I've met in Thailand. Good people in my book. I think overall the stereotype does hold largely true, that being that Americans can be the most obnoxious tourists. US citizens just can't grasp the fact that the entire world doesn't do things the American way. Try to understand though, to an American, we are like 50 little countries. So a US citizen can travel quite abit and think they've really seen the "world" without ever leaving the territorial borders of the USA.
"There is more to life than the most overt kind of P4P, but then maybe the small minority (I hope) of contributors who seem unable to find their arse with both hands, would be unable to deal with the terrible challenge of making a few minutes additional effort to secure something which they deem it worthwhile to spend 12+ hours in flying time to experience."
Agreed. Personally, my hope is that a less visible P4P industry in Thailand drives some of the worst of the tourists somewhere else.
HD
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:46 pm on Sep. 10, 2003
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Mr Alan
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"US citizens just can't grasp the fact that the entire world doesn't do things the American way. Try to understand though, to an American, we are like 50 little countries."
I think there is a stereotype of the American tourist that is primarily based on the fact that many of them are older because (unlike many others) they have the time and money to travel, and whose own values may be a bit outdated in comparison to younger people in the US.
But even in the USA, things are done a lot differently at different locations within the states than a non-US resident might assume. Americans do understand that things are done differently in different locations (inside or outside the US), but that doesn't make them like it any better.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 6:59 pm on Sep. 10, 2003
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Holy Diver
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Mr Alan -
"I think there is a stereotype of the American tourist that is primarily based on the fact that many of them are older because (unlike many others) they have the time and money to travel, and whose own values may be a bit outdated in comparison to younger people in
the US."
Perhaps. But I am not so sure it is because of the age of the tourists. I am actually basing my observations on the middle and younger age Americans I meet abroad.
Believe me, I really detest the knee jerk blame American for everything attitude that is so common. So with that in mind, I did try not to see my fellow country men and women in a bad light when I'd run into them while traveling. Sadly, my observations are infact that Americans are often........well........lets say difficult.
Let me give you an example of what I mean. If I sat at a table in Thailand for lunch with a random sampling of tourists, and was served food from a pleasant Thai restaurant, from experience it just seems more likely that the one person or group of people who'd complain or grumble most about everything such as the food itself, the cutlery, tablecloth, napkins, drinks, etc. would be the Americans.
It just seems that they can't help themselves from believing that the American way is the right way, and all other ways of doing things are just substandard. An American won't be stuck having to use a squat toilet and say to him or herself, "hey there could be some merit in doing it this way, but I'd have to get used to it". Instead he or she would say, "this is gross, these people have a long way to go till their fully civilized". You get my point.
"But even in the USA, things are done a lot differently at different locations within the states than a non-US resident might assume."
I dunno. Only at the margins in my view. The reasons some Americans make for bad tourists are many in my opinion. The US is rich for one, and Americans have a tendency to think that we must be doing everything right because we are so well off (never mind that the US is blessed with so many natural resources and an almost perfect strategic location). Further, the US is sortof like 50 different countries, yet when you travel amongst the States the culture and way of doing things are similar enough that a person could go to all 50 and have never really seen anything radically different - yet they might think they are well travelled.
"Americans do understand that things are done differently in different locations (inside or outside the US), but that doesn't make them like it any better."
Agreed. But I take this one step further. Not only do they not like it, they can not conceive that another country might be doing something in a better way. It just doesn't cross most Americans minds that this might be possible.
Those are just my observations anyway. Obviously this doesn't apply to all Americans - certainly, God forbid, not me! Hehehe.
HD
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 8:26 pm on Sep. 10, 2003
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Hermanolobo
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If its Tueday it must be Belgium !
A friend of mine was a European tour guide(Coach tours) for many years. I wont repeat his experiences here otherwise I'll be accused of 'Just being anti-american' !
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 3:47 am on Sep. 11, 2003
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China Sailor
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When I was in Japan the book "The Ugly American" was requied reading for all Military dependents above the age of 12.
I think it should be required reading for any American wanting a passport. I think its perspective on the American (tourist and expat) overseas in spot on. To top it off, it was written by an American...
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 4:21 am on Sep. 11, 2003
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fastmover
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The 'new' ugly Americans can be found in Mainland Chinese tour groups, reportedly spending more per day (very loudly) on consumer goods than the Japanese or the Americans.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:30 am on Sep. 11, 2003
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Hermanolobo
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I have heard that Chinese table manners have a lot to be desired.
Resembles something like a 'food-fight' apparently !
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:43 am on Sep. 11, 2003
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fastmover
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Lets just say what they do at home they will do in public.
Which does not mean the are intentionally rude, just that they are not familiar with the international way of acting while travelling.
To my thinking they are very much beginers at international travel just like the Americans were at the turn of the 20th century. After WWII when ex-soldeirs took their families overseas they had no experience other than war visits, where table manners don't count.
Americans have been known as the big buck travellers for sometime, then the Japanese. But its going to be the Chinese as the largest group of travellers the world has ever seen.
At present they are only allowed to travel in groups to 19 countries. They will be coming to a country near you, soon.
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:56 am on Sep. 11, 2003
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hzink
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Quote: from fastmover on 4:30 pm on Sep. 11, 2003
The 'new' ugly Americans can be found
...right here! In fact, after believing that species to just be myth, I personally encountered it during my last trip. Here's the relevant parts of my trip report (followed by part II, from my arrival - that guy was incredible):
-------PART I------
Ugly American Sighting Confirmed
For 10 days I was blissfully deprived of this very special species, but today, starting at the Bangkok airport, and culminating at the Taipei airport, I had a full-fledged sighting of this rare bird - The Uglicicus Americanensis, also known as the 'Ugly American'.
We've all seen them, wearing their tell-tale silly shirts, shorts, and always unpleasantly noticeable by their, ahem, vocalizations of always a few decibels more than it should be.
So, me and my friend Graeme are making it to BKK airport, and because of our timely arrival we are offered the opportunity to board an earlier flight. Puts us sooner into Taipei, gives me more time to leech power and net access.. We're 'go'.
At the gate, I notice him sitting on the side-chairs next to the gate, with everyone apparently already boarded. Trying to file him away as just a paranoid delusion of mine was interrupted when he yells out, across the boarding gate area "WHAT'S THE TIME...?". When the gate attendant did not immediately respond within 5 nanoseconds, he repeated his hollerings.
I felt embarassed to share the same country and destination with this man, and I could feel that he certainly wasn't giving gate attendants and other personal a very pleasant impression either.
Oh well, it's just a three hour flight, and then we'll be rid of him - so I thought.
We made it to Taipei, ready for our 3 hour lay-over, I suggested a quick stop at the overpriced café, for some tea and some soup. Only having a $100 dollar bill, and a few singles, I found that they could not break the large bill. The host/waiter was extremely friendly, and apologetic for his inability to break the $100, and his inability to take credit cards, or his inability to accept Thai Baht (which was my last resort).
I felt truly bad about the situation, no matter how bad apparently our host felt himself. My friend Graeme came to the rescue with a $10 bill - Yay - and all was good. The host/waiter stopped by a few more times to check on my drinking needs, I apologized a few more times for the trouble I caused, and I thought that was it....
When our buddy, the U.A. lumbered into the café, and without so much as uttering a 'hello', or using the magic word 'Please', just slumped down at the nearest table, and (you guessed it) hollered across 30 feet of restaurant space, at the top of his lungs:
"COFFEE!"
I had to restrain myself from giving him a lecture in etiquette. Seriously.
Our host, the waiter quickly came over with a fresh cup of coffee, and I knew troublesome entertainment was brewing when our buddy casually hollered (apparently he must think Chinese people are hard of hearing):
"HOW MANY BAHT?"
The waiter kindly and in a friendly manner explained that they only take Taiwan dollars, or US dollars, and that they do not take Thai Baht.
"WHAT? ISN'T THIS THAILAND...???"
"No, sir, this is Taipei, Taiwan."
"TAIWAN...THAILAND...TAIPEI, IT'S ALL THE SAME, ISN'T? YOU DON'T WANT TO TAKE MY MONEY???"
"No, sir, this is Taiwan"
At this point, I've had enough, and I felt personally responsible to help end the poor waiter's torture.
"NO, this is Taiwan. It is NOT Thailand. It's a different country. They use different money. Learn a minimum of geography when you travel...please!"
This jarred him, he gave me a puzzled look, then quickly turned back to the waiter and tried to argue:
"SO, I CAN'T BUY A CUP OF COFFEE HERE? HOW MUCH IS THE COFFEE?"
"$3 Sir" (yes, it's damn expensive)
"SO, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO? YOU DON'T WANT MY MONEY? CAN'T YOU CHANGE
IT? ....(blah, blah, blah..."
Once again, my restraint just broke down. It's not so much that I didn't want to see this guy get steamed, and watch him make a fool of himself, but I felt genuinely sorry for the waiter who was very nice to me earlier, and wanted to end his ordeal.
So, I got up.
Walked over to the jerk's table...
...and pulled out some of my remaining cash, and paid for his $3 coffee.
The waiter was appreciative. The UA was silenced, and aghast, and temporarily disabled.
Of course, this didn't last long. He then insisted on paying me in Thai Baht, which I declined. I told him to just forget about it, and when he sees someone in need of help in a foreign country to just help them in the same manner.... And to familiarize himself with geography and local currency.
Further befuddled, he did not understand why they would not take Thai Baht, when Thailand was much closer than the US, and that they would take the US
dollar. I kindly explained to him that the US dollar is, for all practical purposes, a universal currency, as it is being accepted in almost all airports of the world, and that he would be wise to at least keep some US funds on him (and, passing my own experience on, keeping it in small bills).
Obviously, this concept was not able to be processed by his microbial brain, and I left him to ponder this while enjoying his coffee - as I was walking out, he hollered after me (after alll, I'm hard of hearing as well):
"So, you goin' to Los Angeles as well...?
Oh, joy!
Harry
P.S. Yes, I wish I had a picture...
-------PART II------
Ugly American Returns...
UG-boy popped up again at the customs in L.A.
You know the place where you are supposed to stand behind the yellow line and wait until you can go to the customs counter?
Well, I'm getting taken care of by the customs official, a nice but
professional gentleman, I might add, when UA dude shows up, walks up to the counter, plops himself on the side of the desk, and just starts hanging there... And I mean 'hanging there', by leaning over and taking some kind of bored interest in the custom official's work.
Bad idea, as anyone who has ever traveled can attest.
The customs official looks up, looks at me, and asks "Is he with you..?"
"Fortunately, officer, he is not..."
So the customs officer proceeds to tell him to stand behind the line. UA-boy doesn't get it, and starts arguing "What difference does it make..?" "I'll just stand here...?" "Why can't I stand here...?".
Finally, I just speak up, and very clearly, very calmly, but very
authoritatively say:
"STAND BEHIND THE LINE. THAT LINE OVER THERE. STAND BEHIND IT. DON'T ASK WHY. STEP BEHIND THE LINE -- NOW!"
He finally backs up, steps behind the line, and shuts up.
I turn back to the customs official, smile at him, and continue : "Where were we...?"
He just flashed me a knowing smile, closed my passport, and wished me a welcome home. I flashed him one of those knowing smiles back, and wished him a good evening.
Finally, at the baggage claim I had to ask the guy: "Let me guess, you never traveled?"
Apparently, that was it. He claims he has never traveled, but that really doesn't excuse being a total moron, and a rude one at that.
There's always one on every trip.
Harry
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 5:33 am on Sep. 11, 2003
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Bok Hah
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Excellent post !, I've met a few of his type, but also a few of my own Countrymen have been obvnoxious in a less naiive way.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 5:57 am on Sep. 11, 2003
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