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fastmover
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Sorry hzink, but dead kids are dead kids.
If there was police action to defend against
the attacks because they were informed,
there could have been police action
to pre-empt the attack.
Police should prevent crime, not just be ready
to kill people acting in a criminal way.
Hzink, your entire response is emotional.
I am simply refering to historical precedents.
Superior firepower versus primitive hand weapons.
And are you sure every dead teenage muslim
carried a weapon? Are you sure none of the over
100 killed tried to surrender, or are you sure they
were all shot in the front and not shot in the back?
Are you sure none were shot after they dropped
their weapons, or after they were wounded?
Are you sure none were executed before they
reeived what we want them to accept...the legal
process of the law and government?
Hzink, you said..."I think killing, just as any other actions, can very well be validated - it just depends on the party getting killed"
Absolute bunk. The validation is only made by the killer not the killed,
who are a little short on ability to put forth their case!
The virtue of civilization is that we are able to
consider what exactly is civilized action.
If we do as you suggest and slaughter before the crime is committed or use extreme force beyond the tone of the crime, we become more than uncivilized,
we become killers waiting our turn for judgement.
"I admit to being a bit extreme in this.......but that's just me"
No, hzink, it is your cultural and racial knee jerk reaction that you seem unable to control, which in turn does not allow YOU to 'think out of the box'.
That, and the gun you have mentally placed in your hand and are itching to use as a 'final solution'.
By the way, along with killing the men, you had better kill the women and youngsters and babies too.
Because they will have more sons, and the younger kids will grow up and then your children will be the victims.
Hey nothing personal. Just history replaying.
You do not offer any solution hzink, only perpetuation of the problem,
which in fact is why you chose to ignore history.
Too much thinking required, too many real answers needed.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 11:51 pm on April 29, 2004
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TonsilBasher
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JHJr, that was what I thought too when I saw the feed. Maybe army and police officials are trying to discredit the Thai government for transferring out buddies.
I don't condone terrorism or concerted attacks on anyone. But the root of the problem has to be addressed before others decide to join in.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 11:55 pm on April 29, 2004
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Ballsburstin
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Figure I'll drop my last few cents here before getting back to the more important threads. IMO, Carter really did understand the Arab mind, but I will grant the blunders mentioned herein. "Relaxing" Muslim precepts about the shadour and so forth weren't enough to cause a general revolt. The Shah had laid the seeds of his own undoing with his unadulterated money grab and secret police tactics. I have some close friends of many years who are Iranian. They would like to go home but can't. But they still have little that is good to say about the Shah.
One of the big problems in that region is the so called "tribalism." In other parts of the world, this term isn't necessarily a bad thing. But in the Middle East, historically, this had all been about bullies and banditry. It's the ignorant support of the strongman mentality, and it's what makes it such a complex place and a snake pit. You still see it on the ground there today. Now they are exporting it.
But I don't wish to wait for the next wave of violence to land on American, or Thai, or any other shore. So I have no problem with taking the war to their homeland. My brother was in the air out of Boston on the morning of 9/11 on a transcontinental flight. I waited anxiously for news of his plane, which emergnecy landed (after a high speed touch and go, guess the captain was a little amp'd) in Chicago, 2000 miles short of it's goal -- my home on the West Coast. He rented a car and drove the remaining 2000 miles, non stop, fueled by anger, the speedometer pegged.
So my patience for "tribalism" and "fundamentalism" and all these other "ism's" these days is non-existant. I think the U.S. needs to do three things: align it's foreign policy with it's own Constitution while understanding that democracy can have many incarnations, stop apologizing for every problem in world, and take no prisoners.
- Balls
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 12:25 am on April 30, 2004
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expatchuck
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My, you boys and girls have been busy while I slept.
I would like to address a couple of issues here. The Shah was cruel and repressive in his use of Savak against those that disagreed with his policies. I know because I lived with that daily. People were afraid to speak or take action against the Iranian Royal Family or they would be given 24 hours to pack up and return home or, if they were Iranian, spend some time in Evin prison. That having been said, the Shah had done a remarkable job of developing a solid group of middle class working people that largely supported him.
The revolution started when Carter dropped by to see him, got him to talk civil rights and he released his hold on the media. The newspapers immediately began running articles of criticism against the Shah and the lower class street people took it from there. They were the ones that rioted, burned buildings and defied the authorities.
Of course we cannot forget the students. I recall several instances of sitting in my car near Tehran University, blocked by a traffic jam and watching students running back to the university laughing from the rush of getting shot at by the military, all the while my driver and I were choking from the tear gas floating in the air. To them, it was a lark, a little time off from class. Then when a few of them were killed, they went with the flow and turned against the Shah.
You put it all together with the street people and the students and, unless the Shah is willing to kill them all, he is in a no win situation. He left for the good of the nation after Carter cut him loose. Look at them now and tell me they are better off under Khomeini than they were in 1978 before the revolution.
Now, as far as that botched rescue attempt....I had a friend witness the night in Tehran and one in the sandstorm. Those have to be told over a beer so you will have to whet your appetite and buy me a cold one in Pattaya to hear them.
FM, Harry, et al:
I think we have a simple way to solve this issue about dead teenagers.
If they are killed as collateral damage, then it is a terrible waste of life.
If they are killed as an enemy combatant, then tough sh_t. If they take up arms against me or mine, then take them out.
Edit:
FM; As enemy combatants, I don't really care whether they are armed with an AK-47 or a claw hammer. If I have a gun and can kill them before they get to me, then good for me. War isn't fair. Fights aren't fair. Tough sh_t for them.
....and CNN says only 32 of them were killed in the building, not 100. It seems they took over the building after hitting the police stations and killing five policemen. When they took the building they died in, CNN tells me they used a hand-held loud speaker to tell the local residents that, unless they wanted to die for the cause, they better leave the building. Perhaps CNN does not have all the information (they frequently don't) but it is all I have to go on.
Case closed on my side.
Whew, this is long and I am tired but it is fun to discuss.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 2:14 am on April 30, 2004
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hzink
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FastMover - Let's try to establish some definitions, here, before we continue.
> Sorry hzink, but dead kids are dead kids.
Please define what do you qualify as 'kids'?
In my book, if somone is capable of raising a weapon with intent to harm, they are a 'person', and thus a threat that needs to be neutralized.
> If there was police action to defend against
> the attacks because they were informed,
> there could have been police action
> to pre-empt the attack.
Don't you say a few moments later that it's wrong to be pre-emptive, yet here you blame the police for waiting until they were attacked? What is it, now?
Furthermore, even with a tip off, the best strategy is to be prepared, and let the attacker make the first move.
> Police should prevent crime, not just be ready
> to kill people acting in a criminal way.
a) you didn't see what went on, did you, so you are in no position to claim that the police engaged in what you claim.
b) sometimes killing of a few is done to prevent the murder and slaughter of many. What did you think those 'kids' wanted the weapons they were trying to steal? To hunt water buffalo?
You, by the way, have ignored my question as to what you would do in the situation of '20 middle-eastern guys killed to save 3000 people'. While it's certainly more convenient to condemn, and judge, than to provide solutions, I'd like to think that you have done more than consider only what should NOT be done - let's hear what you propose the government SHOULD be doing, or better yet, what YOU would be doing in these situations.
> Hzink, your entire response is emotional.
Actually, no, your arguments are as you bandy about references to 'children' (always a heart-tug winner), and using choice words like slaughter - while entirely ignoring the kind of slaughter your 'kids' are engaging in. Several people have pointed out the prior slaughter and killing of civilians - facts which you just poignantly ignore. Why?
> I am simply refering to historical precedents.
> Superior firepower versus primitive hand weapons.
Well, yes, I can also find and throw out random historical events, that have no relevance to the issue or the situation. What's the point?
> And are you sure every dead teenage muslim carried a weapon?
Are you sure they did not? Are you sue they were all teenagers?
> Are you sure none of the over 100 killed tried to surrender,
> or are you sure they were all shot in the front and not shot in the back?
Are you sure that they tried to surrender? Are you sure they were shot in the back?
> Are you sure none were shot after they dropped their weapons, or
> after they were wounded?
Are you sure they were all shot in the back, that they were massacred while they were peacefully sitting in a circle singing irish drinking songs?
> Are you sure none were executed before they
> reeived what we want them to accept...the legal
> process of the law and government?
Are you sure they didn't sintead keep trying to attack, spitting blood at the police, and to stab them even while going down?
Two can play at that game, but there is no point in it. You weren't there. I wasn't there.
Nevertheless, the facts of prior atrocities BY THOSE 'CHILDREN' are undeniable, the killed monks, the blown up bars, etc... How many innocent people were killed and hurt by them first (quick, ignore the prior paragraph, and throw out historical events, like the invention of spark plugs)
> Absolute bunk. The validation is only made by the killer not the killed,
> who are a little short on ability to put forth their case!
You're in Haiti, surrounded by 15-16 year olds armed with machetes and pocket knives. There's 20-30 of them. They don't look friendly. There's 4-5 other foreigners lying on the ground around you, clearly hacked to pieces by the machetes, which are still dripping blood. You have a compact submachinegun with 90 rounds, and 3 extra clips.
What do you do? They are clearly children. Killing them would be bad. I suppose I should start dialing your next of kin, right?
Seriously, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
> The virtue of civilization is that we are able to
> consider what exactly is civilized action.
That sounds really nice, and you know what, it applies when dealing with opponents of the same cultural niche than yourself.
> If we do as you suggest and slaughter before the crime is committed or
> use extreme force beyond the tone of the crime, we become more than
> uncivilized, we become killers waiting our turn for judgement.
SO, the police shouldn't have pre-emptively taken action? Yet, you claim that was their error and their crime, to not do so. So, what is it, now?
> No, hzink, it is your cultural and racial knee jerk reaction that you seem
> unable to control, which in turn does not allow YOU to 'think out of the
> box'.
I was going to say the same about you, as you are entirely applying your own cultural context to the situation and condition in a country and culture that you do have the necessary insight into. Neither do I, for what it's worth, but at least I can see a reason why these events connect.
> That, and the gun you have mentally placed in your hand and are itching
> to use as a 'final solution'.
I'm glad you finally lowered this debate to the lowest rung by invoking the 'nazi clause', and veiledly throwing that at me. Well, I guess that means this debate is now over, as you're not able to answer inquisitive inquiries, or using non-emotional argumentation, but have to invoke Godwin's Law as a final nail. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law
> By the way, along with killing the men, you had better kill the
> women and youngsters and babies too.
No, FM, I was actually thinking of sending them to concentration camps and using their skin for lamp shades. There, happy?
> You do not offer any solution hzink, only perpetuation of the problem,
> which in fact is why you chose to ignore history.
Funny, coming from the guy who ignores every question asked of him, and every historical incident in this situation. Wow, there's irony in there, somewhere.
It is you, FM, who is not offering any solutions. All you do is condemn what is being done and hwat is happening. That's fine if you disagree, but show that you can do more than knee-jerk complaining, by actually providing a solution, even if only theoretical.
> Too much thinking required, too many real answers needed.
Is that why you're not having any..?
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 2:46 am on April 30, 2004
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fastmover
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EPC...one day would love to have more than a few beers with you, but you would have to be prepared to talk a lot because all I would want to do is listen.
Till one day 
Hzink, hey bud thanks for the back and forth, but I am sure you must realize that neither one of us is making much sense and the discussion is getting nonsensical.
till the next time.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:57 am on April 30, 2004
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Hermanolobo
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Did you know, this sounds like a bar discussion from retired C.I.A operatives ?
That's if 'they' ever retire?
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 3:32 am on April 30, 2004
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LivinLOS
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And now the warnings spread to Phuket region...
In its warning, delivered to the news agency Agence France Presse (AFP) and reported around the world this morning, Bersatu said, “Persons who plan to visit Thailand NOW are warned not to travel to Patani Raya Region, (Pattani, Yala, Narathiwat, Satun, Songkhla) and the neighbour provinces (Phuket, Phang Nga, Krabi, Pattalung).”
The statement concluded starkly, “Pattani people are not responsible for anything that happens to you after this warning.”
http://www.phuketgazette.net/news/index.asp?Id=3433
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:03 am on April 30, 2004
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Hermanolobo
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Damn ! I love Krabi !
I am taking the warnings seriously though.
One of the things about terrorism is that once one vile act has been done a mere warning is enough to cause problems. One telephone call to a newspaper etc and pandemonium can break out ! An old car abandoned in a street and the security forces are tied down for a while. It starts to become easy for them.
MI5 security advice goes online
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3672221.stm
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 4:12 am on April 30, 2004
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CiaoCiao
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Quote: from fastmover on 10:57 am on April 30, 2004
EPC...one day would love to have more than a few beers with you
Ditto - with FM & hzinc also there, should be fun - some things best debated over beers. I'll buy the first round, for FM too, even though he's not talking to me no matter how much I try to bring him out of himself.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:19 am on April 30, 2004
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