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Ballsburstin
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expatchuck,
good reply re: Shah and Savak. Given the history of the region, it's easy to see why the Shah went down the path he did. I think you are right in your assessment that Carter pushed for liberalization at a pace not in keeping with the reality there. The sad truth is that people like the Shah and Saddam "kept the peace" through repressive methods. In the meantime, the undercurrent was pulling the sand out from beneath their feet, and setting those countries up for chaos. The Shah did a much better job, though, of building a middle class.
That's what I mean about realigning USA foreign policy with our Constitution. Carter tried, but he was dreamer, not a realist, and that gets peopled killed. So I respect his vision and ethics, even while disagreeing with his approach. One can't undo decades or centuries of this stuff overnight.
In the same way, there will be no instant democracy, as we know it, in Iraq. They simply aren't ready for it. Neither were we, in 1776. Nearly one hundred years and a Civil War later, we were getting the hang of it. And we still have a ways to go...
- Balls
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 2:38 pm on April 30, 2004
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kev29ie
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Ballsburstin,
I have kept a reasonably middle ground stance on this. I even only took the marginal piss when you claimed that through writing a book that Carter was an expert on the area, but to speak of, and not only just to speak of, but to intimate that the Shah and Saddam were of the same ilk, and of the same ethos (and by extention that american intervention was in the same ballpark) is not only simplistic, but idiotic. It is completely unrelated and driven through entirely unconected motivations. There are no Similarities, save yours.
(Edited in)
No more than any anyone else who suggested it - lets take it off line, and discuss it over a beer in GT, where no-one will really give a f_ck - we will only care about who pulled who's bird. And I probably might even be able to adopt a stance where I dont pretend to know everything about everything (Although Smegs will never forgive me for stating that piece)
(edited in even later)
Forgive me oh SubCommander of the Perpetually Pedantic (Although I am not really pedantic, I am merely pragmatic)
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:13 pm on April 30, 2004
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Ballsburstin
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kev29ie,
I think we are actually in general agreement on most of this, though I think you are misinterpreting some of what I wrote, because your conclusions aren't ones I've stated. Perhaps I need to be more specific and long winded, but I won't be here (too lazy). I think you are probably one of those who dislikes Carter, so we probably disagree there, but you're right, better to discuss it over beer, lol! Makes for good bar jabberin'. This is, after all, a pussy forum, not a political soapbox (and I'll be in BKK soon enough so I won't have to write about it, pussy that is, ha!).
My point about Carter wasn't that writing a book made him an expert, but that he actively studied the culture of the area for a long time. The book was just something he wrote. I see him as a bit of an armchair president, as it's clear his Annapolis training didn't help much with the bungled hostage rescue. He's better off sticking to things like Habit For Humanity, where he has done much good.
My point about Saddam and the Shah is that secret police who maim and torture are secret police, regardless of who they work for. And it makes the boss, be it Saddam, the Shah, or anyone else, accountable and liable. The Shah knew very well what his secret police were up to. However, I'm not sure where you got the implication that I consider the American intervention in the same ballpark, those are your words, not mine. Only an idiot would link the two in that regard. In Iran, Carter made the mistake of uncorking a champagne bottle too fast, so he got a loud pop, lots of fizz, and a big mess, and 25 years of fundamentalist oppression. Again, the difference between the scholar and the realist.
Those were pre-Taliban days and a very different era (there was still a CCCP then). But if you were following some of the monthly research reports from Harvard and the CIA back then, you'd also have seen that they predicted the Middle East to be the next global flashpoint at the turn of the Millenium, leading to global conflict. They got it right; they were warning against the superpower games in the Middle East that allowed the abuses of organizations like Savak and others to move these countires in dangerous directions. This mess we see now didn't happen in a day.
Like you, I don't put these two rulers in the same category, Saddam is a homicidal psychopath in a cateory of his own (as were his sons, who are thankfully departed). By comparison, the Shah actually built infrastructure and wealth in his country, and educated his people.
Anyway, as the saying goes, "opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink," so I will get back to more important threads, lol!
- Balls
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 8:27 pm on April 30, 2004
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expatchuck
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Good posts, both of you.
This calls for some meeting over beer for a lively discussion. I will be in Pattaya from 5/27 to 6/17 or so. Let me know and we will meet. Anytime after 8/25 I retire so plenty of time available then.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 11:03 pm on April 30, 2004
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Ballsburstin
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expactchuck.
I'll be in BKK from early June 'til around late August. Don't have my tickets yet, so I'll let you know when I do. Sounds like I will get a good verbal thrashing, especially if kev29ie shows up, lol! And some suds!
- Balls
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 11:14 pm on April 30, 2004
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kev29ie
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Quote: from Ballsburstin on 3:27 am on April 2, 2004
kev29ie,
I think we are actually in general agreement on most of this.......
Anyway, as the saying goes, "opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink," so I will get back to more important threads, lol!
- Balls
True....Well put. Just one thing though - I dont dislike Carter persay. If I found anything worth disliking him for..then maybe...
But as you say he is good on habit for humanity.
When do we beer?
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 3:15 am on May 1, 2004
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CiaoCiao
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Quote: from Ballsburstin on 10:38 pm on April 30, 2004
Carter tried, but he was dreamer, not a realist, and that gets peopled killed. So I respect his vision and ethics, even while disagreeing with his approach.
Sums up Carter well. At once: the most honest President ever - and the most inept. Maybe that says something that we don't like to have to admit.
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 1:53 pm on May 1, 2004
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hzink
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...or a bar was blown up, along with those inside...
My point exactly, which I have made repeatedly - but I guess acknowledging that the other side commits atrocities would be tantamount to admitting that the position of 'poor victims' has some cracks in it.
The same can be said that while a lot of folks exclaim outrage at the Abu Gharaib prison situations, I find it strange that the same folks don't voice their outrage and indignation over the beheading of Nic Berg.
You'll find that the Kumbaya-Brigade on here doesn't want to be confused with facts...
Harry
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:36 am on May 12, 2004
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