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visitingbkk
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Seems to me that Thaksin himself overthrew the democratic process with rampant cronyism, corruption and vote-buying.
Not saying it started with him... nor that is has ended but to continue to imply he was cleanly elected is jsut furthering the fantasy.
For the red shorts to demand the PM to leave the country is just ridiculous. Combined w/ Thaksin's continued illicit behavior and total disregard for his country, this just can't end well
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:39 pm on April 11, 2010
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Mr Alan
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Quote: from visitingbkk on 2:39 pm on April 11, 2010
Seems to me that Thaksin himself overthrew the democratic process with rampant cronyism, corruption and vote-buying.
Not saying it started with him... nor that is has ended but to continue to imply he was cleanly elected is jsut furthering the fantasy.
For the red shorts to demand the PM to leave the country is just ridiculous. Combined w/ Thaksin's continued illicit behavior and total disregard for his country, this just can't end well
The democratic process has to do with elections, not with with anything else. If you mean buying votes by aiming his policies to help poor people, that seems like a ridiculous claim.
IIRC (and I do), Thaksin's successor (also duly elected after Thaksin) was also overthrown in a coup d'état, and there was no evidence of corruption from him other than he was in the same political party of the previously deposed Thaksin.
The point I am making is that what goes around, comes around. As soon as a coup d'état is legitimized as valid a method of political change, don't be surprised if it happens when you least prefer it down the road. It would have been a lot better if those who opposed Thaksin to educate the public about his alleged corruption, and to adopt some of his populist policies to get more votes for their own side, rather than to start Thailand down the path away from democratic rule.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 4:45 pm on April 11, 2010
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visitingbkk
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Many would argue (and they are) that
a) Vote buying does circumvent the democratic process and the issue of vote buying is not about his policies while in office but the actions by him and the political party he is/was associate with. No one that I know disputes the fact that vote buying here (and in many countries) is rampant. That however is not justification to allow it to continue.
b) this whole "rural poor" thing is a farce. When you add it all up, Thaksin and his cronies gained billions in personal wealth, not the country and certainly not the rural poor. Elites (whether red or yellow) are the ones that gained over the years. The populist policies and the dolling out of money here and there only buys temporary loyalty and not long term stability.
c) when you use the term "duly elected" then I guess you are part of the conspiracy theorists that claim the judicial process was corrupt and therefore the decision to dissolve the PPP was only on political grounds and the vote buying accusations were mere ploys. If, and I am not saying it is or it isn't, but if the judicial process is failed, along with the, military, police and political process, then Thailand will have nothing but trouble for the next century....
d) IMHO, Thaskin is personally responsible for the bloodshed to date. He was corrupt... no one disagrees with that (but many seem willing to just accept it)... Still.. no one disagrees. He was convicted and ran rather than appeal. He continues to pay huge sums of money to stoke the fire and keep the country in tatters. He could stop all of this in one call. but he wont.
e) Even if the PM steps down and new elections are held, the effect is the same as a coup and will settle nothing... People need to get serious about addressing the underlying issues.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:05 pm on April 11, 2010
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Mr Alan
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Quote: from visitingbkk on 6:05 pm on April 11, 2010
(see above)
a) Your definition of vote buying seems to include advocating policies that the majority favor. The fact is that Thaksin's successor was duly elected, committed no crimes, and should not have removed from office via a coup d'état. Period.
b) Whether or not Thaksin gained billions in personal wealth (not uncommon by those who own mobile phone companies in third world nations) has nothing to do whether he advocated policies to benefit poor people (which he did). Thaksin's successor (also duly elected) did not steal a dime from anyone (at least that anyone is able to substantiate) and was found guilty by the members of the coup d'état and driven from office because he supported the same political policies as Thaksin, not anything to do with alleged corruption.
c) Duly elected means getting more votes in an election in which there was no election fraud in counting the votes (or not enough fraud to decide the outcome since there is often rampant election fraud even in the US). Making political promises to voters does not constitute election fraud.
d) The bloodshed and the political protests are the result of those who have overthrown the most previous duly elected government (and not talking about Thaksin), and refuses to hold further elections.
e) Given that the current government is not elected, I don't see how dissolving the government in favor of elections could be called a coup. That is a very perverse and dangerous kind of logic. and is the rhetoric used by dictators throughout the ages as to why no elections will be held.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 6:28 pm on April 11, 2010
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PussyLover 69
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Report from Bangkok Post dated Monday 12 April 2010 :-
Bangkok tourists shaken by bloodshed
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Shaken tourists wander the street in the aftermath of bloody political battles next to Bangkok's iconic backpacker strip, photographing smashed cars and pointing to bullet holes in the walls.
Sarah Colvin, from Britain, says many overseas visitors are packing their bags in the wake of clashes between anti-government Red Shirts and security forces, which have left 21 people dead and more than 800 injured.
"People started running and screaming. We were being shot at,'' said Colvin, one of many foreigners caught up in Saturday night's conflict that spread into the Khaosan Road district, a hub for travellers.
"It shook us up a lot. We needed Valium to sleep,'' said the 19-year-old. "A lot of people we've spoken to are getting out of here.''
"I won't be coming back to Bangkok. Maybe the islands, but not Bangkok. I'm going to leave tonight.
Yesterday was really scary,'' said Flavia Kupka, 32, a waitress from New Zealand on her first visit to the "Land of Smiles''.
The kingdom has been beset by repeated demonstrations by rival red and yellow-clad protest groups, hitting an economy that sank into recession last year for the first time since 2000 amid a severe global economic crisis.
One of the most damaging protests in late 2008 saw the pro-establishment Yellow Shirts blockade Bangkok's two airports for nine days, stranding hordes of angry travellers.
But Saturday's violence, which followed almost a month of rallies by the Reds, was the country's worst for 18 years and shocked visitors as it spread into the area famous for its cheap hotels, nightlife and shopping.
"There were bullets coming all over us. Bombs as well, petrol bombs within about 10 feet of us,'' said factory worker Tony Doohan from Ireland, standing by debris and pools of blood covered with Thai flags and red roses.
"I saw Red Shirts with a gun they must have stolen off the cops. They all had sticks and were throwing glass bottles... anything they could find really,'' the 25-year-old said. "It's a bad time to be here.''
The retail and tourism sectors have taken a battering by the Reds' weeks of protests - especially since they took over Bangkok's main commercial hub on April 3, disrupting traffic and causing major shopping centres to close.
The Thai Retailers Association said Thursday - a day after a state of emergency was declared - that the protesters' occupation of that district had caused more than one billion baht (about 31 million dollars) in losses.
At the Dang Derm Hotel on Khaosan Road, receptionist Jaringa Jaiya said Sunday that fearful guests had begun checking out after the violence intensified.
"Sure it will be bad for business. I think visitors will be shocked that this happened in Thailand. People want to get out of Bangkok,'' she said.
April is the month of Songkran, a water festival for the Thai new year, and usually attracts thousands of tourists. Bookings were already down this year, and now the celebrations are reported to have been cancelled in Khaosan.
Hong Kong was one of the countries to step up warnings over the city late Saturday, raising its travel alert for Bangkok to the highest level of "black'' meaning that travellers' safety would be under "severe threat''.
But not all visitors were deterred from a return trip to the kingdom, famous for its paradise beaches, fiery cuisine and glittering temples.
"We were told they didn't want to hurt tourists because they live off tourism. It was scary but it wouldn't put us off coming again,'' said Danish backpacker Charlotte Stage, 19.
"Both the Reds and the army were really nice to us,'' added French tourist Eva Minassian. "They were actually protecting us _ both sides _ so I don't think we're very much in danger''.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 6:49 pm on April 11, 2010
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PussyLover 69
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Report from Bangkok Post dated Monday 12 April 2010 :-
Khao San shootout 'terrifies' tourists - Visitors change plans after seeing fighting, pools of blood
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Saturday's bloody clashes between the red shirt protesters and government forces near Khao San Road have left tourists feeling "terrified and anxious", and hoping there is no further violence.
The clash left its mark on Tanao Road, which connects Khao San, the popular backpacker area, with the Khok Wua intersection on Ratchadamnoen Avenue.
Windows were broken and there were holes in the walls of buildings and shop houses in the area yesterday. A small group of tourists gathered to look at United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship protesters who had gathered to look into the causes of Saturday's clash.
All shop houses on Tanao Road were closed. The street was strewn with broken glass, damaged cars and public phone booths that had been pulled down.
"It terrified me," said Lucia Hadley, an 18-year-old tourist from Wales, of Saturday night's events.
"We had to run away and hide."
The fighting was unexpected, she said, adding that she and a friend had to stay in their hotel next to the scene until troops withdrew.
"After it was over, we came out and had a look, seeing a pool of blood and there were bullet shells on the ground. We didn't expect this to happen."
Ms Hadley said she was planning to leave Bangkok for Chiang Mai today because of safety concerns.
Local traders said tourists had fled the scene on Saturday evening but things had since returned to normal.
For New Zealander Ryan Jordan, 25, the confrontation was enough to force him to change his plans to stay in the city.
"We're a little bit anxious about staying here," he said. "Things are getting more and more tense. You don't know what to expect."
Taiwanese tourists Natalie Hsieh, 28, and her friends were saddened by the incident. With six more days to stay in the city, they said they hoped things would recover soon.
"We have to change our shopping plans in Siam Square. We will find [other] safer places to go," Ms Hsieh said.
She said the incident was similar to past political protests in Taiwan.
Like other tourists, she believed the fighting would not continue.
The tourist hot spot was quieter than normal yesterday largely because many tourists had left to spend the Songkran holiday in the provinces, like every year, according to local traders. They said Songkran festivities would still take place in the area.
Small groups of local residents were already playing with water guns but shops in certain areas were closed.
Canadians Etienne Houde, 27, and Noemie Botbol, 24, were among tourists browsing clothing stalls on Khao San yesterday. Both said they were alarmed by Saturday's events.
"To see the army on the street, it scared me," Ms Botbol said.
The clash was unexpected, she said, because they had heard about the red shirt protest since arriving in November but the rallies had not been violent.
Mr Houde said they planned to stay three more days in Bangkok but would remain cautious.
"We're a little bit worried about our safety. We won't go out of our neighbourhood at night," he said.
The tourists interviewed by the Bangkok Post said Saturday's events would not deter them from returning to Thailand.
They said that even though the clash had resulted in deaths and injuries, it should not keep tourists from visiting Thailand. Mr Houde said he would not suggest that tourists planning to visit Bangkok change their plans.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:55 pm on April 11, 2010
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atl
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It is funny that when I cheered and was happy when Toxin was ousted, my wife said to me, "Thailand will be same same, nothing will change!"
Her point is taken 
atl
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:44 pm on April 11, 2010
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koolbreez
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Thaksin's TRT party was convicted of fraud, and vote buying. The going rate was bt500 for your vote. The 2 elected after him, one being his brother-in-law were also convicted of voter fraud.
Thaksin himself still faces 4 charges of corruption, and abuse of power, but he has to physically be in court to answer the charges, mainly why he will not return to the country. A few to do with corruption in airport contracts, and one involving his gov't loan to Myanmar, that he increased himself, to upgrade their telecom infrastructure, with the stipulation that they only buy from his Shin corporation, while he was in office. Not legal at all even under his rules.
The 1997 constitution allowed him to personally appoint those people that were supposed to oversee him for legality of his actions, thus those that could stop his corruption worked for him.
His last snap election during the "squareface" demonstrations was thrown out for election fraud, and at that point he was not the elected PM. He appointed himself caretaker PM then went to the UN for a speach, and was thrown out by a coup. At that point, and with all the people that were supposed to control his actions working for him, the only way to get rid of him was a coup.
He was following the same course of action his good friend Hugo Chavez used to take total, for life, control of the Democratic Venezuala. Thaksin even has a diplomatic passport from Venezuala. So don't for a minute think that the people just had to wait, and vote him out Democratically. He was creating a gov't that that option would no longer be possible.
Thaksin pays the redshirts bt500 - bt100,000 a day to demonstrate now, with the leaders promised bt1 million if they win. Some of these payoffs were caught on film. These demonstrations have nothing to do with the poor, uther than them being payed to demonstrate, It's only about Thaksin getting his money back, and not going to jail, along with getting his power back.
It's just like dealing with a BG, it's all about the money falang.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 9:49 pm on April 11, 2010
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China Sailor
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Mr. Alan/visitingBKK,koolbreeze
Y'all gotta understand that democracy is a messy thing when it works and it can be a disaster when it does not work.
As for corruption, remember that Lyndon Johnson won his first political office by ensuring that all of the dead people on the voter roles voted for him. Later on he and Mayor Daly ensured that JFK won Illinois by ensuring that the dead people in Chicago voted Kennedy.
So why is it that democracy works in the US but rarely works elsewhere. Well using Thailand as an example the Thai have an entrenched elite with special privileges and rights that have been passed down to them for generations. Therefore true democracy is a threat to the elite and they use their influence to undermine elections at every opportunity usually to the detriment of the majority. Because of this, candidates and party's that support the majority are forced to underhand tactics to 'level the playing field'.
In the US however there was no 'historical elite' when the Constitution was written so there were always opposing forces on each side of every issue. This created a system where the losers accepted the fact that they lost the Battle, but also realized that there was always another election so the War was still to be fought at the ballot box.
If any of you non-American members have trouble grasping this concept just wait for the mid-term elections in November. There you will see that the 'dead and buried' Conservative Movement will have a resurgence and many of the left-leaning Congressmen will be out looking for new jobs  ...
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 11:30 pm on April 11, 2010
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