| |
S M E G M A
|
DD, because there is no point in trying to convince believers with logic.
Just get together with a small group of people of different faiths (say a jew, a catholic and a muslim) and try to reason with all of them at the same time about "the problem of avoiding the wrong hell" (*). You will get nowhere. Actually, you wouldn't either on a one-on-one discussion.
Why? Because having faith involves a set of beliefs that make no sense to those who don't have it.
No matter how much you try to apply reason to such a discussion you will come empty handed. Why? Because religious people have chosen to believe things that make no sense to the non-religious.
I know of married couples where one is very religious and the other is not. They do not have these discussions every day, not even every year, actually they never do, because they know that it will taken them nowhere -and also because they have chosen to co-exists peacefully despite their different views.
If people who live together do not try to convince each other, what would then be the point of trying to convince people you really know nothing or at best very little about?
As far as I see it, doing it is similar to the neighborhood thug walking around looking to to pick a fight with whoever looks at him with cross eyes; or it is just plain stupidity.
Why is it the topic taboo? Come to think of it, it would make no sense for any topic to be taboo. But many are. Or maybe it is not the topic that is taboo per se, but the circumstances under which it is discussed or the people with whom you have the discussion. Say that you have an abusive alcoholic father that hits your mother; discussing the matter with your brothers and sisters would be ok. But it would be taboo for the people you work with to come and ask you "how is your mother doing? how long has it been since your father's last beating? All the things that are very very very very and deeply close to a person's heart are more or less taboo. Remember how taboo it is for children to insult each other parents? Why? Because children deeply love their parents without question.
In summary, it actually doesn't matter the logical reasons. What matters is that people who have chosen to believe, would continue believing. I have not ever heard of a believer that stops believing because he was convinced by an atheist or an agnostic following a debate. Those that stop believing, do it by themselves, over a period of time. Bertrand Russell, for instance, when young was very religious. Later in life he wasn't. He wrote his views on the matter in an excellent good book titled "Why I am not a Christian."
(*) Regarding the problem of avoiding the wrong hell (google it if you do not know what I am talking about), funny thing is that Pascal in the 17th century demonstrated mathematically (read about Pascal's gambit) that given that we are unable to prove or disprove the existence of God, and despite one's own beliefs, it makes sense to act as though God exists. Because the cost of being wrong would be greater in the case one had chosen to live as though he doesn't exists -if he does, you would not want to piss him off. Right?
|
Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 11:01 pm on May 2, 2009
|
|
S M E G M A
|
Yes, QQ I have spent periods of time in muslim countries. But not those in the Arab gulf region. Maybe those are different.
But regarding what you call intrusion, anywhere you go, whatever is foreign to you (in that you did not grow up surrounded by it -be a thing or a custom), and is very common locally, could be considered intrusion.
Just like you consider the call to prayer an intrusion, someone from a remote village in the middle of the Amazon forest could consider an intrusion to his visual field the billboards in Times Square, if he happened to go there. He could also consider an intrusion imposed on him, the streets and traffic lights that force him to stop at corners to let cars pass. I do find annoying the noise of cars continuously honking in Indian cities, but I am the one going there... how could they be intruding?
Someone from an environment where they do not shake hands, and visiting on business New York, or Paris or any other western city could complaint about how intrusive he finds westerners, who keep throwing their hands at him.
Funny thing is that intrusion is defined differently depending on the person looking at it. You drinking on an environment where others don't, could be considered intrusion. In a disorganized dirty neighborhood, keeping you porch clean and your lawn neatly cut, would intrude into the others mess.
It is us who decide how much we allow that so called "intrusion" to bother us. Some of us are open minded and adjust easily to almost any environment. Some others despite claiming to be freethinkers, tolerate little those who behave or think differently from them. Ironic.
Now, getting back to the flu topic. Sooner or later somone from this forum should be getting it (it is a matter of statistics). Whoever that is, please let us know of your experience. 
|
Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 11:28 pm on May 2, 2009
|
|
DaffyDuck
|
Quote: from S M E G M A on 11:01 am on May 3, 2009
DD, because there is no point in trying to convince believers with logic.
You may misunderstand -- you assume that by my statements, I am trying to somehow 'convince' believers to question their faith, and maybe change and convert...
To be honest, I couldn't care less -- I find it sad, though, that under the pretense of 'respect', those of us with intelligence are supposed to be muzzled and keep silent about our belief system. Whatever I say, I do out of two motivations - one is that I don't actually give a crap about those who hold stupid beliefs, and don't care about reminding them of this - and one is out of solidarity to others who are similarly not intellectually challenged, but who self-censor themselves and who remain muzzled out of 'respect'.
Frankly, when morons jump in to tell me about their god, I'd rather just ignore them, yet prefer to actually see a discussion and debate develop amongst like-minded individuals, sharing the same critical worldview. Does this mean I am intolerant? Yes, it does - of stupidity.
As for Pascal's Wager - I dealt with that back in high school when I was around 16, when it was presented by our philosophy teacher, and as a mathematical example of CYA, it is rather pointless, as Blaise Pascal was a product of his times and cultural environment, and thus why he arrived at his 'conclusion'.
Personally, I found Pascal's conclusion seriously flawed, insofar as that it is entirely fear driven -- my personal conclusion is that I would rather endure and deal with upsetting a divine terrorist and blackmailer, but remain true to my beliefs, than cower in fear to avoid punishment - by corollary, if the brochure description of god is correct, then it *would* want us to be critical thinkers, to the point of rejecting even god itself, and thus would welcome us warmly, enjoying a smirk while proving our atheism wrong (all the while holding the sheeplike faithful in scorn). So, from my perspective, holding true to your own intellectual beliefs is a win-win, while Pascal stands to lose more.
There's a whole philosophical layout of my personal beliefs that would go far beyond this thread - I welcome you to open a separate thread to discuss it, if you are curious and interested (though I somehow doubt you will).
Lastly, in terms of 'intrusions' - if you travel to a Muslim country, it would be preposterous complaining of their beliefs 'intruding' on you -- it's their country, and you *chose* to travel there. If anything, *you* are intruding. When I choose to travel to a different culture, I abide by their rules. If I don't agree with the culture, or their rules, I don't travel there. Quite simple - and the reason I don't travel to muslim countries.
What I *do* find intrusive, is when I am in a country I chose to travel to (say, Thailand), and a Mosque there annoys and intrudes with their calls to prayers 5 times a day; or an evangelical preacher blares out his idiotic preachings and condemnations of sinners (Hi, Brother Tony) while I am trying to enjoy a nice sit-down - that kind of thing. Those I consider intrusions.
|
Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 12:59 am on May 3, 2009
|
|
S M E G M A
|
Quote: from DaffyDuck on 12:59 pm on May 3, 2009
... one is that I don't actually give a crap about those who hold stupid beliefs...
The problem starts with statements like that. You cannot claim that their beliefs ARE stupid as if you held absolute truth in your hand. At most you could say that you THINK they are stupid. They believe they are right and you don't. But none can be certain -well, probably their conviction makes them think they have a "stronger" belief. Maybe they even do.
You DD can believe whatever you choose to believe. Same for them. But my main point is that it makes no sense to go and try to rub the believers of your views, when nobody is asking you, and it is beyond the topic. Or do you in daily life use any excuse possible to explain to whoever happens to cross your path why you do not believe in God? That is what you did here, using a virus to bring up that subject. And you have done the same before in other posts in other threads.
As well as one extreme is to ask you to stay silent and never talk about the subject, the other extreme is to go volunteering your views, bringing them up out of the blue, on a topic that you know is always controversial. That basically looks as though you are looking to provoke a reaction.. and I already elaborated about that in one of the previous posts.
I tend not to discuss about religion, because I know it would be a waste of time to do it with those that I know have different views. And with those wthat have the same views, well what would there be to discuss, if we know that we agree? The times that I have discussed the topic with smart believers, the discussion ends in 5 minutes; we quickly realize that each one is set on his own beliefs, and it would be pointless to try argue why one is right and the other wrong.
Come to think of it, I am probably annoyed by more morons than you. I consider morons and annoying both the guy walking with a placart that says "Only Jesus saves" as well as the guy walking with one saying "God does not exist". If anything, although fundamentally disagreeing with the guy, I could understand better the motivation of the first one and even feel sorry for the poor sod. But what is the point of the second one, but just to annoy the first one? I feel then the second is a greater idiot, because his motivation and what he is showing that he cares about is to annoy another idiot.
|
Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 6:38 am on May 3, 2009
|
|
DaffyDuck
|
Quote: from S M E G M A on 6:38 pm on May 3, 2009
I appreciate your explanations, but I sincerely believe that there is a greater issue at play here - specifically, enlightened and intelligent people are expected to remain silent (logically, by all the reasons you provided, but also because of the aforementioned 'respect' we are supposed to accord to theistic morons), while the deists are free to ply their trade passively or aggressively.
By sitting back and silently doing, in essence, nothing, only strengthens the deist side by giving them a playing field free of any uncomfortable questions, or opposition to deal with.
That's my personal opinion, though as I said, I appreciate you sharing your opinions and suggestions - and I do agree w/regards to your points about introducing an essentially off topic tangent into the middle of this thread in a kneejerk fashion, and I appreciate you calling me on it. It had no business being there, and I hope you won't hesitate to do so again.
Now, back to the swine, and their flu predicament.
|
Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 6:20 pm on May 3, 2009
|
|
China Sailor
|
It is nice to see you guys are interested in discussing the current flu outbreak 
Quote: from DaffyDuck on 1:07 pm on May 2, 2009
We have much better herd immunity in the US, than the population in Mexico, which might explain why the effects are less severe on the US, than they are in Mexico.
Spot on iDuck, but the WHO takes a global view to the problem not a US (or North American) centric view.
I suspect that this is another 'tempest in a teapot' being fueled by the big media providers to boost ratings...
|
Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 8:47 pm on May 3, 2009
|
|
DaffyDuck
|
Quote: from China Sailor on 8:47 am on May 4, 2009
I suspect that this is another 'tempest in a teapot' being fueled by the big media providers to boost ratings...
....and you would be correct -- it is far easier to be sensationalist, than to be accurate.
The days of accurate, informed, and informative news coverage and reporting are long since gone....
|
Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 11:46 pm on May 3, 2009
|
|
S M E G M A
|
Thanks to Muslims (and religion), the virus will spread more efficiently. This should make the day for DD.
=======================================
Breakingnews
H1N1 poses dilemma for Hajj
By: AFP
Published: 18/05/2009 at 10:46 PM
Flu experts are casting a worried eye at the annual pilgrimage to Mecca, fearing that if swine influenza poses a threat six months from now, a health crisis would be massively complicated by the Hajj.
Specialists questioned at a major medical conference in Helsinki shuddered at the implications if a highly contagious, novel flu virus were unleashed at the world's biggest annual gathering.
In the grimmest scenarios, the pathogen would not only find easy pickings among the elderly, the weak and sick in Mecca -- it would also hitch a plane ride among pilgrims returning home and thus spread farther.
"Just imagine, you have a virus that starts to spread over the world, then you bring people together from all over the world, put them all together for a couple of weeks, then you take them out again,'' said Albert Osterhaus, a professor at the Erasmus Medical Centre at the University of Rotterdam in the Netherlands.
"If there's a mechanism by which you want to spread a virus, this is it.''
Last December, an estimated two and a half million worshippers travelled to Islam's holiest site for the three-day fulfillment of their faith. This year's pilgrimage takes place November 25-28.
In interviews with AFP at the European Congress of Clinical Microbiology and Infectious Diseases (ECCMID), Osterhaus and other specialists cautioned against alarmism, but urged Hajj organisers to start formulating response plans.
"The Hajj will take place, it's not like one of those things which is like a Pink Floyd concert, and you say, 'we don't need the concert'. This event will go through, that's for sure,'' said Andreas Voess, professor of Radboud University Nijmegen Medical Centre in the Netherlands.
"I believe that the health authorities there, with the help of the WHO and others, would need to look at what do we do, what do we advise people... they have to be prepared and they have to start thinking about what to do now and not when they have got the first pilgrimage victim with influenza.''
He added: "It is something that has to be looked at, it really does.''
Since influenza (A) H1N1 swine flu leapt into the spotlight on April 24, nearly 8,500 people have fallen sick, according to the UN's World Health Organisation (WHO).
|
Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 1:26 pm on May 18, 2009
|
|
joeojrr
|
Hi
I was just wondering what will be the effect of Swine fever in Bangkok sex life. Is it not a dangerous situation if we use the massage parlers and unknown escorts for night outs with whom someone had already wined and dined in the previous nights?
Have plans to visit Bangkok in the next month and have a concern about this issue. Can anyone highlight the situation
joe
|
Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 5:26 am on June 7, 2009
|
|
DaffyDuck
|
Quote: from joeojrr on 5:26 pm on June 7, 2009
Have plans to visit Bangkok in the next month and have a concern about this issue. Can anyone highlight the situation
Considering the pathology of infections, if you are caucasian, and resident of a western country, you have very little to be worried about.
Quote: from S M E G M A on 1:26 am on May 19, 2009
Thanks to Muslims (and religion), the virus will spread more efficiently. This should make the day for DD.
I revel in these kind of news. Let's hope it comes to pass. The dirty conditions of their existence should mirror the similar ones in Mexico, I'd hope.
Contracting and dying of the swine flu would just add insult to injury for Muslim. Brilliant!
|
Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 8:24 am on June 7, 2009
|
|
| |
|
