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cmore
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<Tourists visiting places providing indecent shows were of low-quality and Thailand did not welcome such visitors.>
Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý
I might take offence to being called someone of low quality if I weren't more worried about how this new wrinkle is going to affect the ladies. Actually not just the ladies but everyone in LOS that counts on tourist dollars because I also noticed the below article as well and DAMN! this sucks. Things were finally starting to pick up a tiny bit after the SARS scare and now this. Not looking good in LOS right now is it. Peace Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý Ý
http://www.thaivisa.com/index.php?514&backPID=514&tt_news=486
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:01 pm on Aug. 11, 2003
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haam sup
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Without placing myself above it, I will state that this, and every other forum, bulletin board, and website about the 'nightlife' in Thailand has contributed to this latest development.
When it was all relatively discreet (I said RELATIVELY, i.e, before the internet), it was business as usual, even after a few highly visible 'crackdowns'. ÝNow, these sites rub Thaksin's face in it, and, more importantly, rub the face of the average Thai in it. ÝThe public approval of Mr. Thaksin has been bolstered by these measures, as well as the general perception that farangs are responsible for the 'problem'. ÝHe is seen to be doing something about it, and many Thai's are proud of it.
Just couldn't keep our mouths shut could we? ÝKilling the goose that layed the Golden Egg...
Personally, I couldn't care less if there were no more shows, or even nude dancing. ÝI tire of the go-gos in about an hour or so. ÝBut this pendulum will swing WAY past center, and affect many people, TGs, and more substantial farangs as well.
Add this to the visa tightening and fee increases, and the baby goes out with the bath water...
haam sup
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 6:15 pm on Aug. 11, 2003
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Holy Diver
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"Things will change when they see a 40% drop in tourists coming to LOS."
Shutting down the lewd shows and making the girls cover up will most certainly NOT result in a 40% loss in tourism.
"At least for a while, sex tourists are not welcome"
Is that so? ÝI am curious what Deputy Interior Minister Pracha considers a sex tourist. ÝWould that just be somebody who watches sex shows and naked dancers, or could it be the huge number of tourists that pick up the occassional lady for the night in beer bars, discos, coffee houses, karaoke clubs, etc, etc, etc, etc...?
Personally, I find the sex shows silly and not at all appealing. ÝFurther, I think the girls in go-go's can actually look more sexy wearing creatively revealing outfits. ÝSo this "crackdown" makes not a whit of difference to me. ÝBut I am curious as to whether someone such as myself who tends to avoid go-go's and spend money and time at more upscale bars and member clubs also counts as a "sex tourist". ÝI would think the reasonable answer is yes, but it seems the target of the "crackdown" is simply the shows and nudity. ÝI simply do not see how that really helps the government accomplish anything more than distracting the public from the complete corruption which is rife throughout the ministries and police forces.
What is the real point of these crackdowns? ÝDeputy Interior Minister Pracha can walk through Nana Plaza and issue orders shutting bars with lewd shows, but he must realize that 95% of the girls and LB's throughout the complex are available to customers for sex. The same is true in Soi Cowboy and other similar venues. ÝSo other than making it appear the government is trying to clean up Thailands image, shutting the lewd shows accomplishes what?
I think we will know the day the Thai government is serious about ending the VISIBLE farang sex industry. ÝThat will be the day they recriminalize prostitution or otherwise alter the prostitution laws in such a way as to specifically target tourists and expats with fines, jail or deportation with a PNG order issued. ÝLock up and fine a couple hundred farangs every weekend for a month and the word will spread like wildfire to punters throughout the world. ÝA few months later the in-your-face tourist sex industry will be gone.
I actually suspect within a few years precisely something along those lines will indeed happen. ÝI believe that the scene as we know it will be gone within a decade or less. ÝOfcourse there will still be plenty of P4P, but it just won't be so obvious - and therefore less embarassing for the average middle class Thai who resents that their country is viewed as the sex playground of the world.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:21 pm on Aug. 11, 2003
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haam sup
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HD,
I agree with you: things are going to change.
I'm a little surprised at the lack of coherence in the government's various recent measures: 30 day visa on arrival untouched (most sex tourists), but most other, more substantial visa fees up by 400%! ÝThen Pracha's statement about 'low quality' tourists!
It's clear that this has been one giant loss of face for Thailand, and they are going to do something about it.
And Chewit's revelations FORCE Thaksin to act, but the big MPs are NOT primarily farang venues. ÝTalk of taxation will merely make the government an accessory.
As I said before, I couldn't care less if the whole scene disappears - I will continue to be in Thailand, and don't NEED the blatant scene to fill any void I may have.
I like Thailand, and I don't like the recent crop of sex tourists, and blame the internet for producing them.
Interesting times ahead.
haam sup
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 6:43 pm on Aug. 11, 2003
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Holy Diver
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haam sup -
"Just couldn't keep our mouths shut could we? ÝKilling the goose that layed the Golden Egg"
In the information age very little is, nor can be, kept a secret anymore - especially something as significant as the tourist sex industry in Thailand.
While I basically agree with your comments about these types of forums and other websites drawing the ire and attention of the Thai people and government, there is no point in specifically blaming anyone including yourself.
There is just nothing that can be done to stop people from using the internet to exchange ideas and information. ÝThe more popular something is, the more webpages it will spur into creation. ÝThat is just life, nothing you, me or anyone else can do about it.
Every person on this forum can swear off discussing the P4P side of Thailand, and it won't make the slightest bit of difference since someone else can and will fill the void and create a website which will attract large numbers of other interested people.
"Personally, I couldn't care less if there were no more shows, or even nude dancing. ÝI tire of the go-gos in about an hour or so."
Agreed.
"But this pendulum will swing WAY past center, and affect many people, TGs, and more substantial farangs as well."
In time, your right it will. ÝI actually rather doubt that now is the moment that things will change so drastically, but eventually the Thai governments failure to really change anything with incremental approaches will result in the massive swing in the pendulum of which you speak. ÝMany folks have fooled themselves into believing the scene as we know it can't or won't be largely elimated - but they are wrong.
"Add this to the visa tightening and fee increases, and the baby goes out with the bath water"
I don't believe the Visa restrictions and price increases and this crackdown are anywhere near the significant change that we will see one day. ÝI suspect it may take a few more years, or even as much as a decade, before the government really decides to end the visible tourist sex industry - but that day is coming, and when it does middle class Thai's will at least temporarily applaud whatever elected officials actually do it. Ý
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:50 pm on Aug. 11, 2003
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One Eyed Jack
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Well, I sure hope this is just another round of toning things down so it doesn't come to the situation Holy Diver talked about. Isn't that the usual game? For whatever reason, officials crack down for a while, shows get much more tame(good in my opinion), news reports that lewd shows have stopped, and things go on. After a while, the shows start to test the limits again...it becomes an issue again....and the cylce begins again.
Just hoping that this is just another 'cycle'.
As to drop in tourism, I think that if the worst case ever happened, they would feel it. I come to Thailand for business, not sex tourism. The second is a big part of the reason i do business in Thailand though. I know I speak for many more than myself when I say that I go out of my way to do business in Thailand because of the fun that can be had. If that fun was no longer there, visits would stop and probably the business. Thailand is a tough place to do business..and the business is not really that substantial. But it sure is fun trying to do business. 
Can you imagine me X 10,000's who do business in Thailand for the same reasons I do...who spend lots of money (both in terms of hotels, etc. and business investment) disappearing?
I'm in favor of keeping it 'tame' and keeping it a fun place to do business....but can see the goal to, at the very least keep the hard core sex tourists to a minimum.
Have a hard time seeing the MP's go......since their main customer base are not farangs but the guys who are 'cracking down' on the sex trade. Should be safe there. As long as Nana, Cowboy, and Patpong keep it mellow they should be safe as well. wishful thinking???
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:57 pm on Aug. 11, 2003
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ThaidUp
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The bad internet gets blamed for everything. It's all BS the sex scene was more in your face 10 years ago and the real agenda here is the new social order, this was previously started by the former Interior Minister who started the 2:00 AM closings.
Now in your face Chuwit is the cause of all this PR. He is on the news nightly. He is going down fast and taking whoever and whatever with him.
Added to the fact that the PM have put several ministers on alert that their ass is about to be canned for inaction the Interior Minister is on this list so expect a lot of action.
As I said above and it is quoted in the article..
Mr Pracha said they would face a relentless three-month crackdown
Just like the drug crack down after 90 days the program is deemed a success and nothing is further discussed about it. The next 90 days will not be fun in BKK I think its time to take the Thai language course that I have ben putting off.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 7:09 pm on Aug. 11, 2003
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haam sup
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"The bad internet gets blamed for everything. It's all BS the sex scene was more in your face 10 years ago and the real agenda here is the new social order, this was previously started by the former Interior Minister who started the 2:00 AM closings. "
I have to disagree.
If you were walking down Patpong 10 years ago, before the vendors hopelessly clogged it up, then OK, it was more in your face. ÝBut the 'face' it is in today is GLOBAL. ÝAnd Thailand (including Purachai, and the guy who put him in place, and ultimately recalled him) can no longer turn a blind eye to the scene.
And I'm not 'blaming' the internet. ÝOthers have pointed out that there's nothing to be done about people being indiscreet. ÝIt's just that the internet, above all else, has publicised, and made accessible to the masses, all that once was charming about Thailand. ÝAnd the masses, having no stake in keeping things pristine, exploit and ultimately cause damage to the scene.
I think it's short-sighted to point at Purachai, or Chewit, or Thaksin. ÝIf Thai public opinion is apathetic, nothing will change. ÝIncreasingly, Thais are pissed off, and no longer apathetic. ÝThaksin merely reflects and uses this to his advantage. ÝAnd Thais are starved for something to be proud of. ÝWhen they paid off the IMF loan, my (Thai) friends acted as if Linclon had freed the slaves! ÝAnd when they talk about Patpong, Nana, and Cowboy, they are really adamant about how bad these palces are.
Public opinion is powerful, if exploited.
Thai rak Thai.
haam sup
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 7:34 pm on Aug. 11, 2003
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Holy Diver
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haam sup said: "I think it's short-sighted to point at Purachai, or Chewit, or Thaksin. ÝIf Thai public opinion is apathetic, nothing will change."
Absolutely correct.
haam sup said: "Public opinion is powerful, if exploited."
Again, totally correct. ÝAdditionally, a democratically elected government with real popular support has the legitimacy to actually effect significant change without such actions being percieved with nothing but cynicism by the populace.
haam sup said: "It's just that the internet, above all else, has publicised, and made accessible to the masses, all that once was charming about Thailand."
Well, the same is true about the scene in Brazil and cities like Prague or Amsterdam. ÝThe difference is that some towns and countries want the tourist dollars and have no major qualms about being known as a sex tourists destination - Thai's just want the money and nothing to do with the image it creates.
And it really is all about image and a refusal to accept reality. ÝI have talked to so many Thai people who have deluded themselves into believing the sex industry is somehow largely the fault of farangs. ÝAfterall, it is easier to ignore the 90% of the prostitution (Thai only) and focus on the 10% largely directed to Western tourists.
ThaidUp said: "It's all BS the sex scene was more in your face 10 years ago"
Hmmm. ÝI have to agree with hamm sup on this point. ÝFirst, I do think it is more in your face than in previous years. ÝI was personally glad to see those atrocious beer bars on Soi 10 demolished. ÝI felt bad for the staff and owners, but the more those sort of places encroach into the view of an average Thai going about their business, the more likely it is to piss them off. ÝIt is really better for everyone to relegate these places at least somewhat out of view. ÝThe notion of strict entertainment zones is actually an excellent idea in my opinion.
Further, it doesn't necessarily matter much whether the bars themselves are more lewd or obscene - what has created such a problem is that in the Information Age that we now find ourselves in, just about EVERYONE knows about the "scene" now. ÝAnd for a society that does not want to be known as the sex playground of Asia, it is bound to madden them and eventually drive Thai's to limit or shut down the source of irritation. Ý
One Eyed Jack said: "Well, I sure hope this is just another round of toning things down so it doesn't come to the situation Holy Diver talked about."
Actually, I do think this is just another round of toning things down. ÝBut that is precisely what will lead to the major pendulum shift haam sup talked about. ÝThe Thai public will, over time, realize that these "crackdowns" never accomplish the drastic change they would like to see take place where the visible tourist sex industry is concerned. Ý With expectations consistantly never met, the public will eventually rally behind some candidate - perhaps just a local BKK politician or some future TRT party official running for PM who WILL actually follow through and end the "scene" in the way probably most middle class Thai's would like to see. ÝThe will of the people to make a largescale change already exists, it is the ability of the government to follow through that is not yet in place.
Ofcourse, the pendulum could then swing back. ÝWherever the nightlife shutdown occurs it could coincide with, or result in a poor economy. ÝIn which case those same Thai's may suddenly not be so eager to keep these places closed. ÝThe bad image could suddenly be secondary to improving the economy. ÝThough not an expert, I believe such a situation did occur in Manila some years back.
Either way, for people who like Thailand, and enjoy meeting Thai girls - I wouldn't worry too much. ÝFor the forseeable future, there will always be plenty of fun places to go and more than enough girls to meet and even hook up with. ÝBut don't count on the type of industry like nightlife venues, with hundreds and hundreds of girls all in one place just a barfine away, lasting forever. Ý I think within 10 years things will be drastically different. ÝPersonally, the change wouldn't much bother me at all.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 8:43 pm on Aug. 11, 2003
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dirty guru
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I believe the american administration supported the initial crackdown on drugs in thailand, and are working hard at backing the thai goverments current efforts to clean up thailands p4p scence. They must have money assurrances to discourage the ordinary punters from coming in. Interestingly posts before mine, spoke of the nightclubs and various other places that p4p is available, and thai authorities creditability on being sincere about actually stamping it out? Or just winning votes/ or popular perception on doing something. But lets look at the remark that sex tourists spend little money....my last trip cost me$5000 australian dollars....only $1000 on sex the rest on mainly site seeing, alcohol, food, and 4 or 5 star accommadation....I am off again in just a few more weeks, doing another cheap skate trip , many in just a year. I suspect that this will pass, as when sars was in flight in asia earlier in the year tourism fell so badly, that full page ads appeared in papers in many countries appealing us to return. The reality is were you to discourage the average john from visiying thailand completely, 10,000 jobs would go overnight there, and the ecomonic consequences large. This is why i feel it is again being supported by the US administration. Still it will be easier finding a pretty ladies company in thailand, then getting sand between your toes on the beach for a long time yet.!
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:51 pm on Aug. 11, 2003
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