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mm3
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So is it safe to go to Nana Plaza in the next few weeks? 
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 12:33 am on Aug. 23, 2003
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Vancouver Jay
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As long as you don't have drugs in your system, and you don't expose your naughty bits, then yes, it is safe.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 12:48 am on Aug. 23, 2003
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haam sup
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ewo,
Thanks for your kind reply.
I just thought Dodgy got pounced upon out of a misunderstanding of his post, which was admittedly NOT all that clear.
What I took from it is that he is still sorting out personal feelings that many of us have sorted out already, and just rambling about it. İHe seemed to be reacting to his own feelings, and to the excesses he perceives.
I'm a little suspicious of guys who grew up in the West, and DON'T have some misgivings and pangs of conscience when first confronted with P4P and the social fabric of Thailand. İUntil you start to learn to look at it from THEIR point of view, most people are confused, and many are outraged at the conditions they see. İAnyone who arrives in Thailand and doesn't have a few things to work out is one cold motherf_cker.
Is it broke? İSeems to me to be a matter of perspective. İBack in the '70s, I used to camp in the Sierras, near Johnsonville, CA. İThere were trees, waterslides, and LOTS of open spaces. İOver the years, bikers began to show up there in small, then increasing numbers. İSoon, there were constant gunshots, beer cans everywhere, and open exhausts roaring through the unimproved campground.
From their perspective, it was a grand old time, but from mine, it had been spoiled. İAnd I'm a biker, too, or was. İBut I grew up catching a boot in the ass if I didn't respect others' rights, and had a decent example set to emulate.
There have been, and will always be assholes in LOS, but I have seen it become the norm, rather than the exception, for farangs to act badly. İOur OWN country is a terrible place to live, and we are exporting it. İCourtesy is replaced by 'me' in almost every setting.
I plan to make Thailand home, not because there are no problems, but because there are DIFFERENT problems. İThe last thing I want to see is what I am leaving behind...
I realize it's different for the weekend warriors, and this place is LARGELY comprised of them. İBut, from MY perspective, it's become too easy for the bikers to get to the campground.
haam sup
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 1:11 am on Aug. 23, 2003
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dagul
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Quote - "Our OWN country is a terrible place to live"
Try telling that to all the Mexicans and Cubans who risk their lives trying to get to this terrible place... İCan't be all that bad in comparison...
Other part of quote - "and we are exporting it"
As much as I wish it wasn't true I have to agree on that one. A shame that certain things will be lost, swallowed up by westernization. İI don't think the pros will out-weigh the cons in the long run... f_ck Mikky D's
Quote - "I plan to make Thailand home"
I envy your decision and admire your will to do something that would be considered extremely radical to others (when it comes right down to actually doing it). İ I wish circumstances would allow me to do the same. İ
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 3:57 am on Aug. 23, 2003
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Ballsburstin
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Just back from a week in LOS with my TGF and stumbled into this thread. Whew!
Personally, agree with much of what HS has to say here, and think much of this has to do with face. The irony being, of course, that the Thai p4p scene is huge. My TGF is now in a different apartment, and so I am farther "off-the-rails" with her, running around new areas of BKK with very few farang in sight. Am seeing firsthand the many Thai-only "karaoke" and mp's that are everywhere as small scale venues. One tends not to see them when hit over the head by Patpong, Soi Cowboy, Pattaya, etc. But they are there, churning out Baht by the boatload every night. The hypocrisy is legion, but it is their country, and up to them to enforce "moral image" as they want.
One thing significantly more fundamental I see -- the new breed of kids coming out of school are definitely NOT like their parents. I think this will cause changes more far ranging and ubiquitous than any short term moral campaign. Even my TGF, Isaan to core, is listening to music and enjoying media that is distinctly international. So Thailand is changing, and perhaps more radically than we realize. Hey, even Jintara is doing String these days.
Be interesting to be an old punter on a beach in Southern Thailand, looking back on these posts (and my life) 40 years from now.
- Balls
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:13 am on Aug. 23, 2003
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AlterEgo
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Hammy... must you challenge everyone? You must have had a rough childhood. Were you locked in the closet for long periods of time???
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:10 pm on Aug. 23, 2003
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haam sup
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dagul,
Again, it's the 'eye of the beholder'. İBut you are right, it was a careless statement to say that the US is a TERRIBLE place, especially compared to all the horribly depressed and/or oppressive regimes around the globe.
Believe it or not, I consider myself patriotic, but have seen the erosion of the values I used to salute the flag to honor. İAnd I DO think ours is a society in decline, mainly due to the lack of basic education and the emphasis on material acquisition. İThese two things just HAVE to collide someday soon.
And at this point in my life, I'm not willing to stick around and beat my head against that wall. İYou don't see many lone 53 year olds swimming the Rio Grande or the Caribbean from Cuba, either...
Meanwhile, those damn 'circumstances' again! İMine aren't great just now, but I think if I don't do it soon, I never will. İA zillion times I have read "You always regret the things you DON'T do...". İSo, I MUST do them...you could, too.
Balls: İsee you on the beach in 40 years. İI'll be that sun-bleached pile of bones under the coco palm, gripping that rusty beercan...the conversation may be a little one-sided...don't let the dogs piss on me, please...
haam sup
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:10 pm on Aug. 23, 2003
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haam sup
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AE,
At least I KNEW mine...
hs
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:14 pm on Aug. 23, 2003
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Kaymanx
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Arcadius,
Sorry, I am returning to this thread after a fairly long lay-off, not being as able as I would like to be to visit and spend long response time on this forum without the annoying distraction of work. And when I got back, I was amazed to find this thread had grown to 18 pages, notwithstanding that a good share of this growth in GDP (gross discussion pages) came from the pugilistic efforts of C and HS, that eminently made-for-each-other couple.
My response to you might therefore seem rather dated considering that it appears after at least 6 pages and 6 days. I hope forum members forgive that ! And also forgive this further addition to an unending stream of literature on a topic that seems to have worn quite a few bros already.
You have set off a train of thought in me on the "Thai view" aspect. This aspect itself seems quite difficult to comprehend despite the deep insight that Haam Sup has brought to bear on this discussion. On the one hand, we know (or think we know) that there is a great degree of tolerance and acceptance of İ"p" in Thai society that is in sharp contrast to most other societies around the world. This leads us to surmise, assume, presume, generalize that "p" is an accepted way of life for Thais, and that the tourists are damned justified in going there and indulging in greedy behaviour. (There's a site called exploitedteensofasia set up, fed and funded by the farang, but is there any called exploitedteensofamerica?) Here I can quite "feel" the way Haam Sup feels about the campers in his country who have messed up his one-time favourite idyll. İThis presumptuousness also leads the arrogant farang to drop all sense of decency and basic etiquette and flaunt his crassness on the streets - as exemplified in JHolmesJr's post. I have seen some of the whiteskinned farangs doing things in public places that they would have got hauled into the police station for back in their own countries. As example, I remember one guy who dropped his pants in a bar in Phuket in full view of the hundreds of girls and guests. Maybe it comes naturally to some. Maybe those like me among the P4P patrons who get "shocked" at such behaviour need to go get their heads and morals re-examined. Maybe not. But the point is, this is happening in Thailand, a foreign land, that everybody professes to "respect." Clearly this category of farang believes İ he can get away with it because he is bringing in dollars and the poor third worlders will only be happy about that fact and tolerate his transgressions. To this category the current crackdown is a come-uppance.
To take the "blame it on the farang" argument farther, I would venture to say that the acts of a few have tarnished the general image of the foreign tourist, and local resentment of their behaviour translates into general antipathy towards all farang tourists. So not all farangs are to blame - rather it's the fringe elements that have lent their character to the sex tourist. Maybe I am wrong here and it's probably the other way round : it's only the fringe elements among the sex tourists that are not arrogant.
Another illustration of the cryptic "Thai view" is Holy Diver's assertion that the mainstream Thai ladies I met were probably not being honest in not showing their condemnation of the P4P scene. In some contrast, Whitespider says that his Thai lady friends seemed to view P4P in Patpong as acceptable but not in Sukhumvit. To them, according to Whitespider, any life is better than "that" life. So we are nowhere near a common understanding of the "Thai view." And all attempts at explaining it or illustrating it is only so much a non-Thai's view of the Thai view. It would be most interesting and educative if mainstream Thai women were to join this discussion, but that is probably asking for the moon.
In India too there are some remote communities in which the comfort service is a tradition. Mainstream society refuses to understand that and treats the entire community as suspect or as easy prey. It is all easily swept under the carpet away from public view. This to my mind springs from a fear that if allowed to go unchecked it could easily deprave every family man and spread through society. The reality of course is that those who must have it get it anyway. And if they can't get it their society witnesses violent acquisition. Then there are the NGOs who believe they are performing a social service by rescuing girls from brothels. While they may be well motivated, they seem to have got it İwrong too. As you note correctly, many of these girls have CHOSEN this profession for easy money and a lifestyle that they wouldn't have had working in offices or shops and having to support families. There is no question of according them any so-called pity or sympathy, but we can certainly desist from giving them the other extreme treatment, namely contempt or "untouchability." Thailand appears to have traveled far ahead of other societies in this respect, although our interpretation and comprehension İof this "Thai view" may be inadequate. As you put it, the same men who derive pleasure from these women refuse to accord them the respect or the decency that they are entitled to. The hypocritical attitude towards these girls, which considers them to be selling their bodies (although fathers who get their daughters married to the wealthiest man are not considered to be selling their daughters) is what engenders such NGO actions that bring economic misery İto these girls in the name of upholding society's morals.
Without going any deeper into this issue I just want to say that to me it appeared that similar issues were at play in the current crackdown in Thailand. But, as the numerous pages on this thread have shown, "p" is deep-rooted in Thai life - just as it deep-rooted in every country, even if not so extensive -- and there is no wishing it away.
I rather like EWO's succinct statement on "the encroachment of standard norms into the isolated pockets of alternative behavior." İYou have my vote there, EWO. How I hate it when my P4P is encroached upon!
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 11:55 am on Aug. 24, 2003
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Tsonoqua
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In another thread AlterEgo said:
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I do not pick fights, nor do I flame.... I only respond, and I ain't goin away....
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In this thread, AlterEgo said:
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Hammy... must you challenge everyone? İYou must have had a rough childhood. İWere you locked in the closet for long periods of time???
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While I agree that you are not going away, would you please explain the basic incompatibility of the above two quotes to me?
Or, in other words, how is making a snide personal remark about haam sup's childhood anything but a flame?
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 8:36 pm on Aug. 24, 2003
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