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China Sailor
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I think you are missing the point BarneyFife. Look around you - you are not at home in OZ, UK, or NA; you are in Asia.
Whilst shorts and t-Shirts may be the norm at ones home, on a beach, in a Gym, or at a swimming pool; the norm at a public venue (bar, restaurant, mall) is business casual at a minimum (though clean untorn denim pants can substitute for slacks) . After dark, that is upgraded to dressy casual.
Remember the old saw - 'When in Rome, do what the Romans do'. Do not be the 'Ugly American (Farang)'
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 1:31 am on Aug. 16, 2003
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Oaktoad
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This is an interesting thread. A couple of comments...
"it isn't about the money" .. well this is BS, in Thailand it is almost always about the money .. what do you think will happen to the contributions to TRT, etc.. think longterm, not short term .. one thing about Asia that is very different than in the USA is that Asians tend to go long term.. it may not always seem that way, but that is one reason Japan did so well.. they took a long term approach to rebuilding their economy and the USA continued to be very short term .. and it hurt the USA...
One other thing about money.. right now with SARS over and the Thai economy booming right along (industrial production is up substantially as is the stock market) it is a perfect time to address what the Thai's perceive as an image problem for the country.
They don't want the sex tourists to not come, they want to have control over the content (see Thai internet for control of content) so that maybe prostitution is available, but the "lewd" scene disappears...
I could care less.. I seldom go to a go/go bar and when I do never stay for more than a drink.. too much noise, smoke and boring mahk mahk ...
All the "up the pussy" shows are really terrible and if you like women you would not want to see them demean themselves as they do .. but that is another topic 
Change is good and with luck they will tone down the "lewdness" (whatever the f_ck that is) and we will still have the small bars where you can meet a girl or the various massage parlors... or MacDonalds where I seem to meet more girls than ever..
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 11:38 am on Aug. 16, 2003
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Kaymanx
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China Sailor,
A little wonderment here at your statement on appropriate dress codes for public places. I have never imagined that people minded tourists wearing shorts as in (half pants) and flowery shirts. I would have thought it lent charm to the touristiness of a place. I have seen many elderly farang couples looking smart in their hiking shoes and half pants and printed shirts or tops moving through the malls their backpacks stuffed with shopping. My view!! But, like I said, I have never detected any look of distaste on the faces of the sales staff.
Oh, but we do see men wearing shorts and sandals and sleeveless tops on flights where they have to sit next to strangers -- I think that sucks!
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 12:32 pm on Aug. 16, 2003
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Kaymanx
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Most posts here seem to agree on the backlash effect of the internet on the authorities' tolerance of the sex industry. Although there are compelling reasons to believe this is the case, I have my doubts on how sustained the backlash would prove to be.
Let us not forget that the sex industry in Thailand is not the biggest in the world. No sophisticated market exists for gizmos and toys and porn like in the west. The industry here is all about women. Women weeking to make ends meet, women striving for a better life, girls struggling to earn to support their families when their fathers or brothers are too drunk to do so. This is the reality. The government cannot wish it away. The most valid interpretation of the current wave of raids is that the foreign tourists are being made an easy target. But if, as is being argued here, the local menfolk account for 95% of the clientele (as is the case in most countries) then it stands to reason that the current drive will not strike at the local clientele, because then there will be another -- worse -- backlash to contend with. Ý
The other side of the coin (which I fear is another cause of all the peeve among the locals) is that, despite all the bad publicity, the girls catering to farangs are seen generally to receive better treatment from the farangs than their peers who cater to the local menfolk. These girls are seeen to be spoilt by dollars -- and spoilt irredeemably. And because of their client profile, dress codes are different (westernised), they speak english which the schools have failed to teach school going girls, and their mannerisms are getting westernised too. So there is a significant element of "corrective" zeal involved here.
All the arguments being made here about the locals' resentment of prostitution have to be tempered by the consideration that it is not prostitution per se that is being resented (because everyone knows there are men in their families who are clients too and they can't do anything about that) but the money and "glamour" that is being brought to the BG lifestyle (perfumes, dresses, dollars, english, farang friends, independence) that probably attracts more girls to take to the profession.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 1:21 pm on Aug. 16, 2003
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Chompoo
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This provides us with an answer that MAY be technically correct, but is practically useless.
So, aside from belligerent hair-splitting, what's your point?
This is an absurd approach. Are you saying that the law is actually irrelevant and that it makes little difference whether a girl is one year over or one year under the legal age of consent? While the law may be used selectively in Thailand, I think it would be wise for everyone to at least try to stay on the right side of it when it's easily possible. I like my chances better in court (or in the police station) if I'm caught with a girl who is one day over the legal age than one day under it.
This is absolutely not splitting hairs, and it is far from belligerant. I don't appreciate people passing on information when it is highly suspect and completely unsubstatiated. Especially on topics relevant to this forum that are very dangerous to make mistakes about. Whether this is "HIV does not cause AIDS" or "You have 1 in 60 chance of getting HIV by receiving a BJ from an HIV carrier" or "The age of consent in Thailand is 20."
This misinformation will get passed on here to another 50 people if it is unchallenged, which will then spread to countless others.
"Belligerant?" What an asshole. I see you still haven't grown up.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 3:16 pm on Aug. 16, 2003
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Chompoo
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Oh and by the way, yes it IS illegal for a westerner to haver sex with a Thai under the age of 19. the age of consent in Thailand is 15 but that applies only to Thai on Thai. Under 19 is just a small fine and they have staggered rates, Under 15 is prision and under 13 it means LIFE!!
Again I will RESPECTFULLY ask that someone provide some concrete evidence for this. This has come up many times on this board and others and no one has ever found anything concrete that says having sex with an 18 year old bargirl is illegal. ALL official documents (even newspaper articles) I have seen contradict your statement, at least give me something that supports what you say.
If you don't have evidence then stop saying this is a fact. You might want to advise people not to risk going with a girl under 20 (or 30 for that matter), but don't state it as a concrete fact. And the least you guys could do would be to agree among yourselves whether the age is 19 or 20.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 3:26 pm on Aug. 16, 2003
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haam sup
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"All the arguments being made here about the locals' resentment of prostitution have to be tempered by the consideration that it is not prostitution per se that is being resented (because everyone knows there are men in their families who are clients too and they can't do anything about that) but the money and "glamour" that is being brought to the BG lifestyle (perfumes, dresses, dollars, english, farang friends, independence) that probably attracts more girls to take to the profession.'
Kaymanx,
All of your analysis seems colored by your own sensitivities about the 'plight' of the women involved. ÝFrom a Western, i.e., YOUR, point of view they are in some kind of struggle, which must somehow be addressed by the various measures now being considered by the New Order.
I say it's simply a matter of too much indiscretion and open promotion of the existing scene, which is being exploited by the big boys, and manipulated to feed the growing nationalism in Thailand.
As for the 'resentment' of the money and glamour you perceive, I can assure you that mia noi of wealthy Thai and Thai-Chinese businessmen enjoy an equally, if not MORE lavish lifestyle and are no more or less the object of such derision. ÝYet, no one in the government is mandating monogamy, or abolition of extra-marital affairs...
The current climate is no more and no less than Thaksin and Co. exploiting the growing notion that farangs, admittedly highly visible, are to blame for the widespread problems that Thailand is experiencing. ÝIt started (this time) with the idea that George Soros did some magic manipulation of the baht and brought Thailand to its knees in '97. ÝIt ignores the irresponsibility of the Thai banking industry and the rampant corruption that made Thailand a 'house of cards' to Soros' willing breath. ÝThe IMF (International Mother and Father, as one well-educated Thai friend puts it) loan was seen as another farang exploitation of Thailand's woes, and the subsequent devaluation of the baht gave rise to the resentment of the Western buying power we have.
BTW, there was a BIG spike of xenophobia against the Japanese, here in the US, whan their BOOMING economy, and relative strength of the yen, gave rise to rampant conspicuous consumption, VASTLY increased tourism and the purchase of huge tracts of real estate in US cities, notable, that liberal haven, LA. ÝNow, of course, they are hurting...
As many have stated, I couldn't care less about go-go restrictions, red-light zoning, etc., EXCEPT that I think it sets a bad precedent: every time there is a social problem afoot, let's crackdown on SOMEBODY other than those primarily responsible for it. ÝGuys who 'never go to those venues', may not see it, but it is the thin end of a VERY nasty wedge...
None of this makes much difference, because, like ants at a picnic, there will ALWAYS be those who will not take responsibility for their actions, and will pollute the stream for everybody else. ÝBut behaving well CAN influence others, and the futility of trying to change the outcome is NOT an excuse for behaving otherwise...
Chompoo - instead of whining about what you call misinformation, why not do a few minutes research, and state what you have found to be the ACTUAL facts of the age of consent in Thailand.
I don't appreciate people passing on information when it is highly suspect and completely unsubstatiated. Especially on topics relevant to this forum that are very dangerous to make mistakes about..."The age of consent in Thailand is 20."
In your zeal to provoke, you attack someone for "passing on information", and claim that it is dangerous. ÝHow is OVER estimating the age of consent dangerous? ÝIf anything, it provides a safety margin of two years, assuming what you imply (which is in itself, ACTUALLY dangerous) is true.
As for the non-objective application of the law in Thailand: I like my chances better in court (or in the police station) if I'm caught with a girl who is one day over the legal age than one day under it.
Kind of makes my point, doesn't it?
Actually, I'd like to see you, caught with an 18 year old, arguing with the police:
"This has come up many times on this board and others and no one has ever found anything concrete that says having sex with an 18 year old bargirl is illegal. ALL official documents (even newspaper articles) I have seen contradict your statement, at least give me something that supports what you say."
'Click', go the handcuffs, 'Clang' goes the cell door, and if you're lucky, 'THUDD' goes the PNG stamp in your, apparently, nearly empty passport...
As for me 'growing up', I had rather hoped you had used your time away meditating, learning Thai, practicing Muay Thai, and getting a personality transplant, instead of wearing out your welcome at whatever board gave you refuge in the interim.
I'm sure it cannot be fun being you.
haam sup
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:51 pm on Aug. 16, 2003
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dirty guru
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gee, after reading the last 15 agruments., i dont think , i have the brains to say much else, except maybe having eden associated on this forum, (after all it is a perverse menu (pissing , rape role play etc) it does make all our intellectualizing on whose old enough to f_ck, and general dress and conduct in thailand seem audacious. AS for dress, i actually dress pretty poorly, but take a suite in a nice hotel... I admit to being uneducated, and a bum, little culture. But i am self made in hard work, and so i only wear good clothes when dinning in the hotels resturant, or at airports etc...I might have a $1500 suit, but i wear board-shorts or levis in thailand. Cheap charlies call us .....see if i care!..But moral conduct is another thing.....we need to improve on p4p...be discreet.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 7:39 pm on Aug. 16, 2003
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China Sailor
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Kaymanx,
Of course the sales staff will not object, the uncouth Farang is spending money and they need to keep their jobs. ÝIt is what is said among their friends that counts.
Bro's
The question here is not how the BG & MG perceive us but how the middle to upper class Thai, who carries some influence with the government feel.
Currently we are having a Ang Mo backlash here in Singapore. ÝAng Mo are taking all of the jobs. ÝIn fact, the jobs the Ang Mo have are considered not-acceptable to the middle class Singaporean.
However, since the perception by the middle class Singaporian is that Ang Mo has the best jobs and Singaporians are being 'locked out'; it does not matter what the truth is, the goernment must act.
The same applies with the P4P industry in LOS. ÝAs long as the middle/upper class see the Farang on Sumkumviut as a dirty, uncouth, degenerate sex tourist; so we will all be branded as such.
As DG says, be descreet :
- do not draw attention to yourselves
- be sensitive to the sensabilities of the middle/upper class Thai
- be aware of the image you project
and this too will go away.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:13 am on Aug. 17, 2003
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