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Mr Alan
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"...many Indonesian politicians remain wary of American power. Vice President Hamzah Haz of the Muslim-oriented United Development Party said, “Hopefully, this tragedy [9/11] will cleanse the sins of the United States.”
"Has Indonesia supported the U.S.-led war on terrorism? Neither openly nor fully. Indonesia did not cooperate with the U.S.-led campaign in Afghanistan, and Megawati and other Indonesian leaders have criticized American military action there. Indonesia has also not clamped down on financial activities that the United States suspects may relate to al-Qaeda. Indonesian authorities did arrest Jaffar Umar Thalib, the leader of Laskar Jihad, in May 2002 for calling for attacks on Christians. But before the Bali bombing, Indonesia resisted pressure—from neighboring Malaysia and the Philippines, as well as from the United States—to arrest other Islamist militants, saying it lacked the evidence to detain them."
http://www.terrorismanswers.com/havens/indonesia2.html
You can find many other sources for the quote by Vice President Hamzah Haz with a google.com search on "this tragedy will cleanse the sins of the".
I think that it is obvious to just about anyone who can read a map (and also knows what has been happening), that Islamic terrorism is southern Philippines is being exported from Indonesia. I think that recent events in Bali, Jakarta, etc have made some in Indonesia realize that failure to address terrorism will hurt their own economy. But I personally feel they need a much stronger message and for the time being I would prefer to not visit Indonesia, or buy products made there (even though the products I am referring to are all sold by US companies). Hopefully, persons like Hamzah Haz will eventually not be part of the Indonesian government. When that day arrives, I will re-evaluate the situation. I might also add that there are widespread boycotts of American products in Indonesia.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 5:24 am on Sep. 1, 2003
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kev29ie
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I've been to the states quite often on Business and also on Holiday, and have worked with many Americans in various countries in Europe also. I always resent the fact that so many nationalities (including my own - the Irish) ridicule the americans for being one dimensional, insular and even stupid.
As Mike Myers once said, the average american is thought to be pretty stupid by most nationalities, yet this is the race that Put a man on the moon and built the best economy in the world.
Then along come guys Like Mr Alan and make all that logic seem worthless. Jesus H Christ, what a load of crap.
Mr Alan, it is better to remain silent and to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Could the type of American who I know exists (intelligent, unparanoid, openminded) please take guys like Mr Alan and Tsonoqua aside and explain to them that it is guys like them that give americans their reputation for stupidity, arrogance and paranoia.
Heres a question Tsonoqua - ever drink Irish Whiskey? It is now owned by a French company (Pernod Ricard). Better not drink it anymore - But the majority Share of Pernod is in British Hands (via Grand Met) - so that should make it ok - But that also goes for French wines shipped through Grand Met or Diagio - In fact when you think about it, through not drinking french wines you are harming a British company - your self stated only friends in this mess - Shame on you for being so unpatriotic. 
Think about that next time you pack your 'freedom' letters for your next trip to los 
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 6:08 am on Sep. 1, 2003
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Mr Alan
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kev29ie,
Apparently you think that being intelligent, un-paranoid, and open-minded means someone who always agrees with you. Perhaps you should open your mind a bit.
The fact is that there are already widespread boycotts of American products and companies around the world as a result of US military action in Afghanistan and Iraq. I don't hear you criticizing those boycotts.
There are also widespread boycotts among anti-globalizationists against products made in Indonesia and sold by American companies (Nike, etc). How do these boycotts fit into your definition of intelligent, un-paranoid, and open-minded.
Somehow I suspect that if you needed a service I was able to provide to you, you would not consider my services based on my statements above.
I don’t hold permanent grudges against any people or nation. But it is obvious to me based on recent events in Bali and Jakarta that the Indonesians will only address terrorism if they think it will affect their pocket-book. I think they need some additional “pocket-book” incentives to encourage them to do the right thing. But that’s just my opinion.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:32 am on Sep. 1, 2003
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kev29ie
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Tut Tut, you are at it again Mr Alan.
now where did I say - or imply, that I was looking for someone to agree with me.
Equally where did I imply that I wouldnt buy a service off you?
What i think is arrogant, paranoid and stupid is the fact that you believe that through snactions and boycotts that you will change attitudes -
One of the first statments that came from the US (fter, of course grief), was the deep held believe that American Foriegn policy needed an over haul to be more inclusive and less intrusive.
Well another job well done..........
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 7:43 am on Sep. 1, 2003
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Mr Alan
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"What i think is arrogant, paranoid and stupid is the fact that you believe that through snactions and boycotts that you will change attitudes."
That seems like an unusual statement. Did that apply to sanctions against South Africa during apartheid? There are now, and have frequently been, economic sanctions against many nations.
I am not proposing formal sanctions against Indonesia, but as a consumer (in a free society) I make my own personal choices about who I purchase goods and services from, just like those who boycott goods made in Indonesian and sold by Nike for other reasons (globalization). My reasons for not buying goods make in Indonesia are that economic incentives do influence behavior IMO (both on an individual level and a national level). That seems clear to me after the bombings in Bali and Jakarta.
But most of all, I realize that there are differences of opinion on these issues, and I do not think that people who disagree with me are arrogant, paranoid, nor stupid.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 7:57 am on Sep. 1, 2003
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Smegma
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This discussion is now reminding me of what the old NEWs forum used to be. And one of the reason why Z was created. To keep all non-LOS or sexual oriented matters outside the main forum.
Care (and dare) to move this discussion to Z? Where you will find some real debating intellectual minds who never get tired and never let go. Be daring!!
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 8:14 am on Sep. 1, 2003
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Mr Alan
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Good point (OMG!). I will refrain from discussing political topics in this thread any more.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 8:17 am on Sep. 1, 2003
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craigoz
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Mike Myers - a great guy, pitty he got nailed for his free speach.
I saw him give a one on one interview with Larry King over the issue and it was an insight into "how much freedom to speak that we dont have these days" and this now applies to most of our countries not just the USA.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 11:15 pm on Sep. 1, 2003
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hzink
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Quote: from Mr Alan on 5:24 pm on Sep. 1, 2003
for the time being I would prefer to not visit Indonesia, or buy products made there
To really have an effect, you need to make the extra effort to write (not e-mail) to those US companies, and let them know why you are not buying their products - and encourage others to do the same.
For a US company, it is very easy to source a different manufacturer of their product in in SEA, and, as in all cases, money talk (or lack thereof).
Harry
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 11:32 pm on Sep. 1, 2003
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