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chateaujade
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I need to check this out some more.
I understand the difference between literal meaning, the etymology of a word/phrase, and the evolved usage. Viz., decimate. Original meaning to kill 10%. Evolved usage, to kill a large part (like a majority of) a group. Opposite meanings, same word.
I will ask well educated Thais who have spent extensive time in USA, and who have therefore, deep comprehension of both cultures.
One of my favorite (non dirty) Thai phrases illustrates the problem.
In english we say that something that is a klunker, usually a car, but could be other things, is a lemon, right?
So I tried to take this directly into Thai. No go. Pehn minaow just got me puzzled looks because clearly whatever I was pointing at was not a lemon (or a kaffir lime either...)
Finally one of my partners asked me what I was trying to say. I told him and he broke out laughing.
Turns out as he explained, that Thais have a phrase with exactly the same meaning and usage: Mai pehn saparoj. In Thai to say that something is a klunker, you say that it isn't a pineapple.
Not a pineapple = not sweet.
A lemon = sour.
Sour = not sweet.
Cognitively equivalent, the Thais go the long way round the block to say the same thing.
Can you see Trini Lopez singing "Mai Pehn Saparoj" instead of "Lemon Tree"?
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 8:12 pm on Oct. 3, 2002
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MrJoe
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Trini Lopez??!! CJ, you ARE perverse! Anyone whgo listens to both Trini Lopez and Warren Zevon is seriously twisted.
I know that you understand (as I said in my post) thus my surprise on your reliance on literal translation to explain the usage.
BTW My secretary was in US for 4 years to get her degree. I just called a freind who was there for 11 years (where she earned her doctorate) and another freind who lives 1/2 the year in the states for the last 15 years (He is highly educated as well.)
Just ask any Thai to describe a person who is seubeu; What do they mean when thay say that?
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 8:21 pm on Oct. 3, 2002
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Chompoo
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Not to be picky (and I didn't post in the now deleted "decimated" thread), but I don't think decimate has changed that much in spirit (although I don't have an OED in front of me to confirm).
The current meaning is not necessarily to kill (or reduce in number) the majority of, just to take a large (or significant) number of. By most accounts a 10% loss of human life, whether in battle, through disease, or anything else is a huge amount. So the meaning hasn't reversed itself; to say that it has would diminish the drastic action of killing one in ten people.
If you're talking about a stock portfolio that that has gone down by 10% you certainly wouldn't use the word decimated, since that is not such a drastic change when talking about money.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 8:37 pm on Oct. 3, 2002
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chateaujade
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I think we are talking in circles.
Let's just stick to English for a moment, I mean American and slang at that.
If some one is being an asshole we very well might call him a f_ckhead. What's the difference between being an asshole and being a f_ckhead?
The Thais call someone who is a dumb guy, among other possibilities, a water buffalo (Ai kwai) or a water buffalo's head (Ai kaban kwai), in either case the meaning is: stupid, uneducated, beast of burden. As mentioned earlier, kaban is an animal head; hua is specifically and only a human head (a human or animal skull is a galoke)
There are lots of more direct and literal ways to call someone:
ngo = stupid (hard to pronounce the ng half consonant/half vowel Ngaw nguu, at least for farang)
Pen ya on = idiot, retard
But to call someone a kwai seems more satisfying and again harkens back to agricultural origins.
So sure, calling someone a buffalo-head probably "means" calling him a dummy but knowing the literal meaning helps understand the usage.
At least most of the time.
I will find out about seubeu and let you know what I can dig up.
Ai kaban kwae = dickhead and added insult of nonhuman
Ai kwae = dick, penis, cock (applied as an insult to a person)
Ai hee = pussy (calling a man a pussy)
Ai na hee, or just Na hee = pussyface = a cunning linguist. You've got to get the tone right on the hee though It's rising tone. Fighting words! not to be used lightly unless you enjoy brawling with kick boxers
Did I already mention that calling a girl Ee dawk Sampeng is a lot worse than merely Ee dawk or Ee dawk tong?
Ee dawk Sampeng = Chinatown whore (literally Chinatown flower)
Ee dawk tong = whore, slut, tramp (literally gold flower. I retract my eralier remark about brothel girls of earlier times having to wear a gold flower. Apparently flower here is used as a metaphor for pussy, a gold flower = a pussy used for digging gold. A whore.
Ee dawk = calling a girl a flower. Sounds OK in English but in Thai and combined with the hateful (originally slave) pronoun Ee this is calling a woman a c***.
The three above are in descending order of severity, but using any of them CAN get you dragged to a police station and fined on the spot.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 8:43 pm on Oct. 3, 2002
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MrJoe
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If someone were slow on the uptake or in a daze or just not as swift as they should be, would you call him a f_ckhead or an asshole?
I don't mean ngo. I mean as above; slow, dazed, not sharp.
BTW I didn't mean to dispute the relevance of literal meaning. And yes, we do seem to be circling (with knives out but neither of us really want to stab each other and...oh enough of the tortured metaphor MrJoe...)
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 9:02 pm on Oct. 3, 2002
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chateaujade
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We're not arguing, no acrimony involved, we are just trying to shed some light on an interesting piece of street Thai.
If someone is dazed and confused I wouldn't call him either asshole or f_ckhead. I might call him a space cadet or something like that, probably the Thais might call him Ai Maow Ganja (Dopey, in the stoned sense whether he is literally dazed from smoking dope, or not.)
Asshole or shithead or f_ckwit or something like that I'd reserve for someone who is obnoxiously, offensively wrong headed or behaving badly.
Example: someone posts here "All Thai women are sluts and they all have their price."
My response, whether posted, muttered or just thought: Asshole! Then I take out my Gerber Mk II fighting knife (or better, a Randall) and stroke it lovingly while murmering "Patience, my angel" in a Peter Lorre voice (which does bad things to my throat.) (Ref: Dr Einstein in ARSENIC AND OLD LACE.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:19 pm on Oct. 3, 2002
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MrJoe
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I actually still have my Gerber as well; No joke!
No we're not arguing. Let me elabporate a bit more though; I have a real foul mouth when speaking English (You know the old Army colloquialism; "The f_cking f_cker's f_cked." I've been known to talk like that.) So I made a decision to use NO profanity in Thai and I never have. (This made quite an impression considering my former life and the people I associated with.)
I have never used "ai heeya" and when working with upper middle class Thais in 5star hotels, it would have been shocking if I did. I have used "seu beu" many times and have heard many others use it in polite company. The same is not true of "ai heeya". That is always a harsh perjorative if directed at someone (unless amongst close freinds ijn a joking way; just as we can say to a freind; "f_ck you". Now I must type something so that those 2 words are not how I close my post to you  )
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:51 pm on Oct. 3, 2002
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MrJoe
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Which reminds me of a conversation a freind had with a Harvard grad in a bar :
FREIND: "Where are you from?"
HARVARD GRAD: "I come from a place where we do not end our sentences with prepositions."
FREIND: "OK -- where are you from, asshole?"
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:04 pm on Oct. 3, 2002
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chateaujade
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Oh, I certainly understand soldier talk, spending my whole career around US military is why, despite my 18 years of formal education, I've been known to "The f_cking f_cker's f_cked," too.
But I must admit that a whole lot of my Thai-elite friends when they get to having some wine (trendy conspicuous consumption, of course) then the yet meh's and the ai heeya's definitely start to fly. And these are academics, attorneys, scientists, politicians, doctors, and so on.
My old (now deceased) friend Pratak Hetrakul was largely ostracized, despite his enormous wealth, because he abused the franchise. A conversation with him often went a whole lot like soldier talk, except in Thai. Yet Pratak was Assumption Bangrak and Assumption Sri Racha educated.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 10:17 pm on Oct. 3, 2002
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chateaujade
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CJ: that's 'friend" MrJoe.
MrJoe: Thanks, CJ, you pedantic asshole!
I cringe when I see major spelling mistakes on MS-NBC, CNN's webpage etc. Often in headlines, often far from obscure. And that's despite spell checkers. I despair for the language, the Internet is not being a positive influence.
BTW Harvard had a Department of Homosexual Studies. I shit you not. That may not be what the name is but that's what they do.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:22 pm on Oct. 3, 2002
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