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DaffyDuck
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Quote: from scobie on 11:40 am on Mar. 28, 2005
There are some 'local' customs that are just wrong. This is one of them.
Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you there, specifically on your statement that a local custom be 'wrong' - and the solution to 'bail' on a girl, if the word 'dowry' is mentioned reeks a bit of cultural intolerance.
Now, to clarify - we have seem from various threads that there are weddings in Thailand that do not involve a dowry, but that it appears that many do. Claiming that 'Do our customs not matter?", you're taking a cop-out on this, particularly since there is no farang custom that says "Thou shalt not pay a dowry, lest you go to hell". In fact, dowries were part of farang culture for a pretty long time (and, in some way still are -- after all, the bride's family is supposed to be pay for the wedding, remember?).
From what I understand, getting a dowry for their daughter is a 'face' gesture within many families, so essentially blowing it, I'd think, would be like flipping the 'bird' to someone that wais you.
I think the key is to differentiate between the family that sees the dowry as a method of personal enrichment (the same type that will keep their palm open continuously), and those that want to fulfill a ritualistic obligation. From what I have both heard and read, grooms can negotiate with the family to have the dowry (or a part of the dowry) returned to them after the wedding ceremony - this allows the family to partake in the public ritual of showing off how much their daughter is worth, but honest parents will then return the sum in private. Alternatively, the groom can have earmarked a certain amount for a house for his bride, and he can hand over that amount, and then have the parents 'buy' the house for the newlyweds.
There are also, apparently various factors that come into play regarding the value of the dowry - if the girl is over 30, the dowry is lower; if the girl is previously married, and even has a kid, the dowry may even be skipped. It's kinda based on market conditions, I guess 
What I'm trying to say, is that there are many different ways to satisfy this kind of cultural ritual, by playing into it, or by playing along with it, without suffering any hardship - and if you like a girl enough to want to marry her, you should also be willing to play along with her cultural rituals, out of respect for her and her family (if the family is the serious kind, not the indebted gambler kind).
My opinions, of course, YMMV.
Dr. von Quack!
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:19 am on Mar. 28, 2005
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Alifco
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Scoobsy and Goosey, you guys deserve new names 'thing1' and 'thing2'.
Where did you guys get so smart?
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 2:27 am on Mar. 28, 2005
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bkk1402
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Thanx for all the information provided. Got some new information. Her parents have some debts and this is why they ask such a high sum. Guess this also means there will be no return of the money. Hm if I could be sure with her its for a live time and they not ask me that amount every year then I probably would do. But after all she and they are Thai. Can I trust them? There will be no definite way for sure, but what are the signs I should look for? Anybody has any experience?
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:18 am on Mar. 28, 2005
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Baskoy
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You can be sure that it won't be a one off payment. They have already run up debts so they are obviously inclined to that way of handling money, you will be seen as a cash cow to be milked dry especially if you give in to the initial request.
I would offer 50,000 and no more explain to your girlfriend (if she doesn't already know) that you are not that rich and that that is the top you can go. If she's happy enough with you and knows you will do your best by her in the future then it should be enough.
If she is totally influenced by her parents and they insist on more. Then you should consider your position carefully.
Start as you mean to go on.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 4:34 am on Mar. 28, 2005
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scobie
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Cultural intolerance? Mmmmmmmmm...I don't think so. Cultural impatience maybe.
I can't help but suspect that in Thai / Farang relationships the 'tradition' and 'face' card is played far too often, and always to the farang's detriment.
I personally would not pay any dowry unless there is a rock-solid guarantee that it gets paid back in full, minus any costs. I certainly wouldn't pay it in the OP's case - he's already discovering that his GF's family 'need' the money to repay debts. Chances of getting it returned? Zilch, I think.
This is all hypothetical, and I accept that it's easy to adopt my (admittedly) dogmatic position when there are no personal feelings involved. My GF has no family so it would never be an issue.
All opinions expressed on this board are just that - personal opinions of the member making the post. Except of course, the posts by our resident angry Australian Alifco. His opinions are whatever he thinks his masters want to hear 
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 4:40 am on Mar. 28, 2005
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DaffyDuck
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Quote: from scobie on 4:34 pm on Mar. 28, 2005
I can't help but suspect that in Thai / Farang relationships the 'tradition' and 'face' card is played far too often, and always to the farang's detriment.
That's an opinion - I am to assume that the 'face' card and the 'tradition' card aren't being 'played' in Thai relationships orculture, because they are second-nature. We are aware of them, because it is different to our culture.
Thus, as a good example, what we consider as 'odd' or 'demanding' a Thai man would do automatically, because of his cultural understanding - hence, if we fail to respond appropriately, the girl may gently prod us to buy her something, to 'show our love' - something that most western folks consider preposterous.
But, let me ask you this, if you know that your girlfriend is elated over receiving pink roses, wouldn't you pick up some for her, if you have the chance? Likewise, if you know that in your girlfriend's culture, 'love' is shown by giving gifts, or displaying generosity, wouldn't you want to 'speak in her own language' (especially if you LIVE in her culture, at that time?).
This reminds of a recent letter on the Stickman site - some guy sent his girlfriend flowers, to her home, and she was disappointed that he didn't have them delivered to her office, where she would have risen in 'face' because all her co-workers would have been impressed. Instead of making a mental note to send the flower to her office, next time, this guy was outraged that the flowers were not enough for her. Personally, I believe that I know enough at this stage to have known to send the flowers directly to her work, but this guy is displaying a lack of understanding of his girlfriend's culture, or at the very least, of her values and what is important to her.
Which, I think, it all boils down to - knowing what matters to your gf/wife, and how much you're willing to compromise for that.
I personally would not pay any dowry unless there is a rock-solid guarantee that it gets paid back in full, minus any costs. I certainly wouldn't pay it in the OP's case - he's already discovering that his GF's family 'need' the money to repay debts. Chances of getting it returned? Zilch, I think.
Agreed in this case, that the dowry is not going to be used as a traditional symbol, but rather to bail the family out of debt -- not an option for a dowry, in my opinion. Furthermore, the original poster should also have the family checked out, to see if they have a history of debts (gambling, living above their means...) or if this is a single debt brought on by extraordinary circumstances - this makes a lot of difference, again, IMO.
I do side with the earlier suggestion about negotiating a lower dowry (50,000 Baht sounds about right), based on the knowledge that it will not be returned, though he should then be prepared to provide additional paymenmts to the family.
An alternative would be that he agrees to support his wife, yet that any money she earns from her job, she can do with as she pleases - including giving it all to her family to help in the repayment of the debt.
Lastly, if the debt has some insane interest rate associated with it, he could offer to loan the money to the family, interest free, but they will have to repay a portion of it. In other words, he would give them a dowry of 700,000 Baht, but they would agree to pay back (let's say) 500,000 of that in installments. That way, the dowry can appear large, their debt can be resolved, and he can see if they are trustworthy in repaying him (that last option takes some trust, so having them checked out is a good idea - again, TPE's services come to mind).
As I said previously, there are many options.
This is all hypothetical, and I accept that it's easy to adopt my (admittedly) dogmatic position when there are no personal feelings involved. My GF has no family so it would never be an issue.
Wow, does she have a sister? Girls without family are like finding a diamond on the beach
Except of course, the posts by our resident angry Australian Alifco. His opinions are whatever he thinks his masters want to hear
Oh, I find his anger is cute, especially his subserviance and compliance to those feeding him treats. I kinda find having my own pet stalker kinda cute, don't you?
Dr. von Quack!
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 5:46 am on Mar. 28, 2005
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waxhead
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Well, I can comment, even though it may not be what everyone likes to hear!!
My grandmother flat out refused to accept any dowry at all even though I come from a very poor family; she loathed the idea of having a whitey entering the family, and so basically didn't accept anything, and pretty much booted my mum out of the family... so this is one extreme, and not a very pleasant one.
The other extreme is a family that takes all the dowry, usually a large amount, and then keeps it. This is the "scam the stupid farang" approach and the problem is that pretty much almost every Thai person in, say, Isaan knows of someone whos husband or ex husband paid crazy money for some knocked up divorced oldie from NEP, and so at least a few think that farang are stupid enough to be taken for a ride, or are mega rich or both. You are dealing with many villages where the most educated person didn't even finish high school; their view of the world may be a little distorted to say the least!
The usual is somewhere in the middle; the family returns some of the money back and the couple have a solid start; think of it as the guy being able to prove he can look after her to the bride's family..... most Thai marriages have had a dowry; and most have received it back or something similar in its place.
To say it is a "Thai custom" and then say because you are farang it doesn't apply is kind of like saying because you speak English, and Thai people don't, they should just speak English. In my opinion, the idea of the dowry is a fine one provided the money is returned (which incidentally is not how it used to be, but things change).
However, the exception is where there is a clear difference in wealth between the two families, in which case it might be reasonable to expect a compromise; after all, in the case of some guy rolling up with his mega bucks and scoring some ho who has no $$ and broke parents with no education straight outta Surin...well clearly someone was born luckier than the other, and for a moderate payment to the family (or better still a moderate payment with some strings to make sure it isn't blown on rubbish using the wife to be to arrange it) is hardly any skin off the richer party's nose. Ocassionally, you'll see a Thai relationship like this, but mostly it is farang/Thai relationships with marriage between classes, and almost always the rich guy, poor woman scenario.
This is the classic scenario that most farang struggle with, simply because it is so hard to see the line between being a nice guy and being a sucker. And of course, this is where the "its the principle that counts" line is applied and makes everyone unhappy.
I'm always sceptical when the daughter sides with the parents, not the husband; that usually isn't happening in a Thai + Thai situation unless there is some family conflict; I would take this to be a rather bad sign, that you are going to be viewed as a wallet to pay for her shopping - have a chat in Thai with some Isaan women (non bargirls) who want to have farang boyfriends/husbands, and one of the major reasons is so they don't have to work and can live an easier life because "farang are super rich" - this mistaken belief is stronger in Isaan than pretty much anywhere else, simply because Isaan is poorer and less connected to the rest of the world and thus the true story than the other parts of Thailand (like say Bkk). Plus you've got that string of guys willing to pay 1m baht dowries in the past to overcome as well.
Furthermore....
- she is from Isaan; not exactly a rich area, and not exactly an area commanding anywhere near that level of sin sot, even if she is the daughter of someone with a nice house; unless of Thai Chinese extraction with some major business interest or senior police/politician/govt official (way beyond village headman level) the dowry should be less than 200k; although 200k or more is fine to pay provided there is some clear indication that you are going to get it back
- any former children or marriages and the sin sot should be 0, although practically the issue of the "nice guy" approach should be considered
- I could accept the no dowrie argument far more if the marriage is in a farang country; but usually it isn't so..... when in Rome.....
- the people who usually play the "farang" card often do it in such a laughably bad way that it amazes me that it would even work with Germans, English, Americans, etc not exactly regarded as the least stubborn or least worldly people in the world. And yet it works time and time again; with the massive divorce rates in interacial marriages; a legacy of car wreck stories on the net and so on.... I can only assume that love does indeed make one blind..... ripped off blind in some cases.... super happy in others.....
- compromise always works better in Thailand than flat out refusals.... like most things a smile and a spot of negotiation works wonders; everyone gets a bit of what they want. Of course, if you can't speak Thai, then expect to be having problems; especially if your wife to be is the translator and seems to always be agreeing with the parents...hmm... that is one relationship I think would be hard work to manage long term....
- there are so many beauty contests, don't necessarily believe that winning one counts for anything
If it makes you feel better, one of my bosses is a fairly high up kind of guy, who hated the future son in law (all parties are pure Thai).... so set a ridiculously high dowry to try to prevent the marriage.... sadly the couple eloped.... and the son in law is indeed a complete tosser.... so you can be comforted knowing that at least the odd Thai guy goes through the same hoops.....
Good luck
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 6:42 am on Mar. 28, 2005
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ringthebells
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I think the 700k is just interest occuring from the debt and that you are supposed to pay it twice a year.
on a more serious note.
I have heard that payments of millions are not uncommon in such classes. cars, even houses are given.
but usually its the fathers that pay, as they want their son to be marrying a girl of similar class.
mayors of cities usually dont have debts, they collect them!!
rtb
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:41 am on Mar. 28, 2005
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DrLove
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Give em a crossed check for 10 million baht. The parents can show it off to the neighbours and later burn it
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 1:43 pm on Mar. 28, 2005
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thailife
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look, if $5,000 is such a big deal to someone with a Thai wife, then you will have a lot more problems going forward.... Usually when a Thai girl marry's and then goes to the husbands home country she quickly figures out that they are not made of money and problems soon follow.... so, don't marry one if you can't afford to take care of them..... you can set al the expectations you want, but if you can't give a girl the life she wants, she will find it else where.....
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:48 pm on Mar. 28, 2005
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