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scobie
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Well, that's all fine....... but I'm still not paying a dowry. Pigheaded and proud of it 
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:59 pm on Mar. 30, 2005
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ABC
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Dowry, my arse. Tell her that as a farang, you have customs also and that giving dowry is not one of them. Why should we as farang 'fall in' with everything as if we have no rights ourself? Do our customs not matter?
If I was to marry a local and her parents wanted a dowry I'd be out of there like a shot.
There are some 'local' customs that are just wrong. This is one of them.
Ad hoc and 'from the heart' assistance to a girl's family is one thing (although it seems the amount of help a girl's family 'needs' is inexplicably linked to the farang's perceived wealth). But institutionalised rorting in the guise a 'custom' is taking the piss.
Everyones entitles to their own opinion so here's mine.
Unfortunately, this is a good example of why some "asians" don't want their daughters to date/marry foreigners. Take that as just a GENERAL statement and NOT a personal attack towards anyone.
I suggest that if you don't like the dowry thing, then you should look for an A.B (American Born) or westernize type of female and forget about a foreign born asian female to marry. Probably could be less of an issue.
It's part of the asian culture like it or not. I for one don't like it, but "if" I want to marry an asian, then chances are I'll have to give some sort of dowry.
And, be thankfull that it's only one payment. In some chinese customs there is some magic formula and the male has to give something like 8 gifts ranging from different amounts. Which they do NOT get back and can not ask for it back or that would mean "lose of face".
And this is not even pointing out the fact that in chinese customs you also have to pay to get the bride to come out of the house as well as do tasks to even get to the amount which is not included in the dowry. My cousin in Hong Kong had to pay serveral thousand U.S when they were negotiating the price.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 10:03 pm on Mar. 30, 2005
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scobie
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I'm not so convinced it is so pervasively part of the culture as we think. Also, I think it's important to remember that cultures are fluid and everchanging and that customs change. It was the custom in the UK only 30 years or so to ask for the bride's fathers permission to marry, but that seems to have disappeared today.
I've just done a straw poll of 6 girls in my office here. 4 are married. 2 are single. Only one of the married girls' families received a dowry. She married a farang. She's upper middle class. The dowry was a cheque for a million baht which, after the wedding, was immediately torn up. It was purely symbolic.
In the other three marriages, none had any thoughts of dowry. Again, all three are what I would call middle class girls. One is married to a farang. The others are married to Thai men.
Both of the single girls thought dowry was outdated. One of them made an interesting comment that she thought it was still relatively common in poorer country areas. One of the married women said she thought it was 'barbaric' and made women into pieces of meat.
OK, I accept that six office girls is not a representative sample (they are probably more educated and westernised than our target market), but I think we should be careful when we extrapolate what is the cultural norm for poor BGs into some kind cultural norm for Thailand as a whole.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:18 pm on Mar. 30, 2005
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ABC
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I can not speak for Thai culture, but I can say with pretty strong conviction that the so-called Dowry issue is very common in the Chinese culture.
Yes, I understand we are talkin' about the Thai culture.
Also remember many times it's not up to the female if the custom would or should be followed, it's up to her family.
So, eventhough she might not believe in it, if her family does then I would think it would be very hard for her to go against their wishes.
If you do not want to pay then of course it is everyone's right not to.
And, I do think that the $$$ is the easy part. It's just a tangle good. I think the bigger hurdles could be what
has already been point out.
marriage is hard work, made a lot harder by trying to bridge the gap of 2 cultures. Add in the aspect of how emotionally screwed up a former prostitute is going to often be, and a complete lack of education for many former prostitutes, and it is a tough situation to get through.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 10:28 pm on Mar. 30, 2005
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Alifco
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I don't get it - people that either live there, or have been there far longer, don't seem to 'get' simple concepts as that, while brutal newbies like myself seem to have a better grasp on these social norms, and how to make them work for ourselves, as well as the Thais.
What an amazing man, gods gift to the world 
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 11:17 pm on Mar. 30, 2005
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manowar
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In most Asian societies, males are still the dominant figure in the house. Father rules the house. He will delegate certain things, but he can also "un-delegate" anytime he wants. So if the father is "old fashioned", then he will want his daughter's marriage to follow old customs which includes all kinds of ceremonies and "dowry". It's really not about $$, it's about repect to the father of the house and his wishes. If the father is "modern" or "westernized", then he may follow some old customs, but he may not. In many asian households that are "Chrisitian", it sometime gets really colorful because it can be a combination of all sort of eastern and western ceremonies and customs. There have been weddings that were performed twice, once in the old way, and then in the church. So the bottom line is " What does daddy want ?". In a family with no daddy ( daddy died or divorced), then it's what does mommy want or what does the big brother want. The daughter ( your future bride) has very little say in any of these cultural stuffs unless the family is very "modern" or "westernized". For us, do you want to come to Asia and marry a "westernized" girl who maybe better in communications and familiarity to your culture, but is a feminist, wants to boss you around ( why not stay home in farangland, then ) or do you want to marry a "old fashion" girl who has all the baggages of the old countries, not good communication ( at least in the beginning), "greedy" family that want "dowry", but hell of a good old fashioned, femine wife who lets her husband stay out late, cook, clean and take care of your kids.........it's "up to you"............
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 11:37 pm on Mar. 30, 2005
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scobie
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Good question. I want a combination of the two and think it's easier to find if you raise your sights a notch or two above the bargirl scene.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 12:13 am on Mar. 31, 2005
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manowar
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Quote: from scobie on 8:07 pm on Mar. 30, 2005
Good question. I want a combination of the two and think it's easier to find if you raise your sights a notch or two above the bargirl scene.
Absolutley ! When you talk about "marriage", you'd better be talking about marrying a "good girl". Do not ever marry a BG. Keep her as "paid consort="mia noi", ok, I can see that. But marriage with a BG ? No. would you marry a "hooker" in farangland ?
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 1:24 am on Mar. 31, 2005
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waxhead
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actually, I see that at least in Thailand, in general it is the mother than controls the purse strings; and it is often the mother that is pushing for the dowry more than the father!
Even in many Chinese families here it is like this.... no coincidence that Thailand rated I think in the top 5 countries in the world for sexual equality in the workplace regarding opportunities; look at how many directors and CEOs of public companies are women here; it is actually quite a few compared to many other places.
The male appears to "rule" but the work and the details are handled by the woman; witness the way this Sanoh thing is being handled by PM Thaksin; this is quite different to having a dollybird wife with no brain; the wives are the ones resolving and making it all happen. And the males are appearing to rule; but even so it is apparent to everyone that the women are the so called "power behind the throne" in this case.
So the issue of the dowry, I would say the status issue sits with the father, but the practical details sit with the mother; as the expression goes; look at the tail of the elephant to see the elephant's nature and look at the mother to see what the daughter will be like. The mother is the one who is making the things happen; pulling the strings so to speak, and like mother like daughter. I'd be surprised to come across a family in Bangkok where the daughter and mother could not agree on how the dowry issue would be handled - most would be in agreement, or would leave it to the phoo yai to sort out.
Almost every Thai friend I have; mostly upper class well beyond office staff level have paid dowries and had traditional Thai weddings as well as integrating more modern components; most have got the dowry straight back as a wedding nest egg and have the traditional white gown photos and so on. For the Chinese wedding, quite often (at least in the ones I have been to) the bride and groom must serve tea in the afternoon to the phoo yai and at that time they receive gold and so on; in this case the purpose of the dowry in a well off family is to show that their lovely daughter is worth it and making sure that the family they marry into can look after the family.
All perfectly fair.
And BTW very few Thai families are Christian, although a few notable ones have some Christians (Khun Gobchai Cheerativat for instance) - the poorer, the more likely they will be Buddhist. Muslim Thais would outnumber Christian Thais in Thailand I would guess.
If you are a rich guy and you marry a BG or provincial poor person; bear in mind you have probably been lucky enough to be born with food, education and all these other things - that family may not have. In this case of inequality, but you don';t want to share your $$ with the other family, how can you get around it, because in some cases, the obviousness of inequality (and fact that you are taking away the income that the BG previously generated to support the family - which is why you are being hit up for a dowry - basic TVM calculation) means that some sort of $$ is expected - more so than the middle class/upper class woman who has a higher price (theoretically) but doesn't need the $.
What to do... and that is something that is a joint choice between the bride and groom. Bear in mind that if you can't agree on something simple like that, then you are probably going to end up divorced. Actually, the odds are against you anyway, but I'd say something so simple as figuring out how to handle this is a good precursor to the bigger issues down the road.
BTW this idea of "Asia" and "Asians"... for most things you couldn't really say "white people all think the same" and I don't think you can say the same thing about "Asians". Easier to break it down to Thais, Koreans, Japanese, etc - all quite different and I am only willing to comment on Thais and Thai Chinese; wouldn't know much about most of the other groups! Many similarities, yes, but so many differences!!
Don't see this feminazi vs. old fashioned values thing either; I think a better distinction is "good hearted and fair" vs. "complete bee-atch" - although I think many people wanting a Thai wife would like a 3rd category, "sex machine, maid and moron"
I think I will come up with my new category for myself:
"super robo babe, stupid, very rich, always horny" 
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 7:42 am on Mar. 31, 2005
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ColoradoGuy
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Quote: from ColoradoGuy on 2:13 pm on Mar. 30, 2005
For example, when I was in Isaan two weeks ago,...
BTW, this trip to Isaan was to attend a wedding. The girl was about 27, poor, never been married, pretty, never worked in a bar, no kids, marrying a Thai guy. The dowry was 20,000 - or it might have been 25-30K, I forgot how much because everyone was trying to give me whiskey at 9am.  It was paid in new 1000 baht bills counted in front of everyone at least 3 times. I asked Dew if this was the customary dowry, she implied it might be a little high.
Dew also said some of the money will go back to the couple, not all of it goes to the parents of the bride. If the parents can find someone who will pay 180-200k baht dowry for a girl who used to work in a bar, then more power to the parents of the girl. IMHO, if they guy comes up with that money, it shows them that he will cough up money in the future - they have captured the golden goose.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:37 am on Mar. 31, 2005
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