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MarkC
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Quote: from Old Hand on 11:58 am on Oct. 11, 2004
I can understand the speed drop-off when the service is busy and it does not seem unreasonable.
My question is - is the drop-off "pro-rata" i.e. is the speed loss (approximately) the same as a percentage regardless of the package one subscribes to, or does every package drop-off to the same speed as all the others?
Talking specifically about the True service here since I am considering signing up for that.
With no offence intended to you at all, Old Hand, that's the problem. Many people have come to accept that most ISP's service levels drop off in the evenings, when everybody comes home and starts using their connections. The trouble is that ISPs don't install enough equipment to give 'home' users the service they think they've bought (yes, I'm sure the small print in the contract covers this, but that's not the point).
Without getting all techie, what they do is, for example, plug 10 or so customers with 512/256 (download/upload, 512k=1/2M, 256k=1/4M) contracts into a connection that's maybe only 2M. 10x512k=5M, so if all 10 customers try to use the bandwidth at the same time they'll each be getting only slightly more than a 204k connection. The ratio of users (total bandwidth) to the size of the ISP's connection is called the contention rate.
Some don't notice this loss of bandwidth, most can't measure it and almost all put up with it. The reason ISPs do this is that they rent the 2M connection (in the example above), so the more customers they can connect to it, the more money they make. It wasn't always so, but it seems to be more or less universal now.
'Business' users (who, to be fair, pay much more for their service) tend to get what they've paid for. Many monitor the bandwidth and get quite irate if it drops. In fact, 'business' users pay more for a guaranteed contention rate, 'home' users are at the mercy of the ISP's demand for profit.
And here we have the crux of the matter. If you pay for a 'business' service you get the bandwidth (connection speed) you've paid for, if you go for the 'home' option you don't.
This is an ongoing problem in the UK, that a small, but growing number of users are trying to get ISPs to address.
So it boils down to this: If you buy a 512/256 package as a 'home' user, it's low-cost but you won't actually get that bandwidth 24/7. If you buy a 512/256 package as a 'business' user you pay much more but you get a more-or-less guaranteed connection, 24/7.
Of course one solution would be for ISPs to charge pro rata, depending on the bandwidth available, but this would also wreck the business plan.
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Posted on: 1:24 am on Oct. 11, 2004
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hzink
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Quote: from MarkC on 1:39 pm on Oct. 11, 2004
So it boils down to this: If you buy a 512/256 package as a 'home' user, it's low-cost but you won't actually get that bandwidth 24/7. If you buy a 512/256 package as a 'business' user you pay much more but you get a more-or-less guaranteed connection, 24/7.
Of course one solution would be for ISPs to charge pro rata, depending on the bandwidth available, but this would also wreck the business plan.
a) There's a difference. As a home user, you buy a package that can provide you with 'up to' 512/256, while as a business user you get 'guaranteed' 512/256. Believe it or not, most consumers are smart enough to understand the difference. Those eternally grumbling about such technicalities are also, surprise, not willing to spend the higher amount for guaranteed service.
b) If you know the limitations of the service, you can easily compensate for it, or work around it, or live with it. If you are willing to spend the money, you can always get 2 DSL lines, and merge them together with an appropriate router. Using the right hardware, you can effectively double your true bandwidth that way (think: Xincom routers). 2 lines would then still give you you up to 1024/512, which should be plenty, for 1180 Baht (considering the 590 Baht deal).
c) Unless you do some serious work on those lines 'up to' 512/256 is still plenty to get your work done.
d) Always consider the price you pay. For 590 Baht, I really wouldn't expect a guaranteed speed. $15 US for DSL is a price we can just dream about in the US, at any speed 
Harry
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Posted on: 2:10 am on Oct. 11, 2004
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compexec1
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Quote: from hzink on 3:25 am on Oct. 11, 2004
Quote: from MarkC on 1:39 pm on Oct. 11, 2004
So it boils down to this: If you buy a 512/256 package as a 'home' user, it's low-cost but you won't actually get that bandwidth 24/7. If you buy a 512/256 package as a 'business' user you pay much more but you get a more-or-less guaranteed connection, 24/7.
Of course one solution would be for ISPs to charge pro rata, depending on the bandwidth available, but this would also wreck the business plan.
a) There's a difference. As a home user, you buy a package that can provide you with 'up to' 512/256, while as a business user you get 'guaranteed' 512/256. Believe it or not, most consumers are smart enough to understand the difference. Those eternally grumbling about such technicalities are also, surprise, not willing to spend the higher amount for guaranteed service.
b) If you know the limitations of the service, you can easily compensate for it, or work around it, or live with it. If you are willing to spend the money, you can always get 2 DSL lines, and merge them together with an appropriate router. Using the right hardware, you can effectively double your true bandwidth that way (think: Xincom routers). 2 lines would then still give you you up to 1024/512, which should be plenty, for 1180 Baht (considering the 590 Baht deal).
c) Unless you do some serious work on those lines 'up to' 512/256 is still plenty to get your work done.
d) Always consider the price you pay. For 590 Baht, I really wouldn't expect a guaranteed speed. $15 US for DSL is a price we can just dream about in the US, at any speed
Harry
I agree with you on A, C, D. But you are wrong about B, getting twice the bandwidth to the DSLAM will not help you with congestion issues to the CO or Peering point, with these types of service I'd say go for the cheap option to get the most bang for your baht.
MarkC-
Looks like stealing access is still your best option! Also if you are not decrypting any security keys is it really stealing? Also the subject is cheap DSL, what is cheaper then "Free"?
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Posted on: 3:49 am on Oct. 11, 2004
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MarkC
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Quote: from hzink on 2:25 pm on Oct. 11, 2004
a) There's a difference. As a home user, you buy a package that can provide you with 'up to' 512/256, while as a business user you get 'guaranteed' 512/256. Believe it or not, most consumers are smart enough to understand the difference. Those eternally grumbling about such technicalities are also, surprise, not willing to spend the higher amount for guaranteed service.
b) If you know the limitations of the service, you can easily compensate for it, or work around it, or live with it. If you are willing to spend the money, you can always get 2 DSL lines, and merge them together with an appropriate router. Using the right hardware, you can effectively double your true bandwidth that way (think: Xincom routers). 2 lines would then still give you you up to 1024/512, which should be plenty, for 1180 Baht (considering the 590 Baht deal).
c) Unless you do some serious work on those lines 'up to' 512/256 is still plenty to get your work done.
d) Always consider the price you pay. For 590 Baht, I really wouldn't expect a guaranteed speed. $15 US for DSL is a price we can just dream about in the US, at any speed
Harry
a) As Monty Python so ably and amusingly pointed out, 'up to' clearly includes the number 0 and I don't think anyone would be happy with that. I can't speak for consumers in the US, but in the UK most consumers aren't IT-aware enough to understand the effects/implications of the difference. Once they do understand they become quite cross, but then many contention rates in the UK are pretty bad. Yes, some of us moan a lot about 'technicalities' and you're right, I for one would not consider the much higher cost of a guaranteed connection.
b) Yes, I'll live with it, but I'll carry on pointing out the inadequacies of the service (or rather the business model used by almost all ISPs these days). Paying for two lines (apart from the undoubted extra expense of having a second line installed) seems a bit of an arse-about-face solution.
c) Again, you're right. Dial-up is enough for me most of the time, but the ADSL solution will save me a few Baht a month.
d) The deal on offer here is about half a typical UK price...but the UK has more or less the most expensive Internet access costs in the world. Yes, it's a good deal that I'll more than likely take up. I wouldn't expect guaranteed bandwidth at this price either...but just because everybody does it doesn't make it right. And yes, it's probably more of an issue (on and off) in the UK. And yes, I'll shut up now.
Compexec1--I think you might be right (except for the cost of buying the extra kit I'd need).
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Posted on: 5:22 am on Oct. 11, 2004
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DrLove
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Yes, Harry, I would even pay THB 590/month for an unlimited dial up package.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:45 am on Oct. 11, 2004
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hzink
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Quote: from MarkC on 5:37 pm on Oct. 11, 2004
I wouldn't expect guaranteed bandwidth at this price either...but just because everybody does it doesn't make it right.
So, Mark, hw would *YOU* do it, then, without throwing your business into insolvency, if you ran an ISP?
Overselling a connection is something many ISPs do, because they have to, as the pricewars have become such that it's the only way to remain solvent. After all, what good is it to have an ISP that 'does the right thing', and:
- goes out of business after 6 months, because they couldn't sustain the business model.
- charges you A LOT more, in order to afford the various upgrades they feel they need to do in order to make you happy.
Also, bear in mind, you are highly unlikely to use the pipe 24/7, hence any providing this type of guaranteed bandwidth to the consumer is a waste of resources anyway.
Quote: from DrLove on 10:00 pm on Oct. 11, 2004
Yes, Harry, I would even pay THB 590/month for an unlimited dial up package.
Agreed - the way I see it it's dial-up costs, and DSL speed.
Harry
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Posted on: 10:32 am on Oct. 11, 2004
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MarkC
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Quote: from hzink on 10:47 pm on Oct. 11, 2004
Quote: from MarkC on 5:37 pm on Oct. 11, 2004
I wouldn't expect guaranteed bandwidth at this price either...but just because everybody does it doesn't make it right.
So, Mark, how would *YOU* do it, then, without throwing your business into insolvency, if you ran an ISP?
Overselling a connection is something many ISPs do, because they have to, as the pricewars have become such that it's the only way to remain solvent. After all, what good is it to have an ISP that 'does the right thing', and:
- goes out of business after 6 months, because they couldn't sustain the business model.
- charges you A LOT more, in order to afford the various upgrades they feel they need to do in order to make you happy.
Also, bear in mind, you are highly unlikely to use the pipe 24/7, hence any providing this type of guaranteed bandwidth to the consumer is a waste of resources anyway.
The first UK ISP managed it OK (until it got too big/BT got involved/banks and investment houses realised how much money there was to be had by ripping people off, etc., etc.). The problem is that ISPs are now considered 'big business'. However, if run as a utility, they're not. They're really small turnover, small profit deals. And what upgrades? Most people just want a decent, reliable connection. (I'd argue that dial-up to ISDN to xDSL were technology changes, not 'upgrades' in the traditional sense.)
A number of low-overhead ISPs have started up, offering low-cost, high-availability services, and failed due to being put out of business by telcos like BT using illegal (in the UK) business practices.
I suppose you'd argue politics on this--free enterprise and such--but if you run it like the Germans used to--ISDN for all, provided by a state-run telco (it was a while ago) --decent Internet access can be cheap. It's just not that profitable a business.
And sorry, but if you can't sustain a business model without 'overselling' (i.e. offering something you can't deliver) then the business model is wrong. Only trouble is investors don't care as long as they get a return. Reminds me of the bursting of the dotcom bubble and that was something many people saw coming a long way away (and no, I'm not suggesting there's an 'ISP bubble'.)
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Posted on: 1:18 pm on Oct. 11, 2004
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chickengeorge
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Right, I have DSL from SAMART for my business 512/256 and the price sucks...9600 baht a month and you know what, the performance is no better than my home connection 256 at a few hundred baht a month.
So tell me oh those who are much wiser at this than I.......what is some reliable monitoring software that I can use to show SAMART how their service sucks?
Thanks
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:16 pm on Oct. 11, 2004
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DrLove
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It is maybe the wrong answer but try:
http://www.speedtest.nl
They have upload/download/ping tests (server in the Netherlands).
It's in Dutch...
Homepage -> click on Test Suite (left margin).
Then click on 'Start de geselecteerde tests'
My results (KSC, dial up) :
3,6 / 2.7 / 55 / 297
The rest will be easy to follow.
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Posted on: 10:48 pm on Oct. 11, 2004
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chickengeorge
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Cheers Doc this is exactly what I was looking for....
Resultaten van http://www.speedtest.nl
(Overgenomen op Tue Oct 12 2004 om 11:14:51 UTC+0700)
Download : 19.3 KByte/sec (=154kbps)
Upload : 8.3 KByte/sec (=66kbps)
Connection : 45.0 Conn/min
Ping test Nederland : 576.0 ms
So this to me is nowhere near my 'guaranteed' 512/256 that I am paying thru the nose for.
Bedankt
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 10:58 pm on Oct. 11, 2004
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