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DaffyDuck
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Quote: from Sarge on 11:39 pm on Dec. 26, 2008
mmhh... actually the "ownership" cost is cheaper in UK than Thailand. Let's compare plans like for like:
The fake cost of ownership comparison is one of the dumbest (sorry sarge) ways to compare costs of goods and services -- as the cost of services is a constant, regardless how you turn the numbers (in other words, you ARE going to be paying for some sort of service, no matter what).
Hence, your UK cost is roughly US$ 930 and the Thai cost is roughly US$1,475 - which appears to be more than $500 more expensive.
The question that is more of a concern, is what do you actually get for that price, versus what would you have paid if you had not been on a plan (i.e. current prepaid user) ?
Thailand/TRUE iPhone plan:
3,600 minutes per year (300 minutes / month)
3,600 texts per year (300 texts / month)
UNLIMITED DATA ACCESS
-------------------------------------> 23,988 THB
I can't really find the cost of TRUE's prepaid plans right now (any access to TRUE's mobile sites, now redirects to the iPhone pages), but in general you can pay between 1-2 Baht per minute and 1-2 Baht per text - let's avergae to 1.5 Baht per each (which is True's overages charges as it stands).
So, 3,600 minutes of voice would come to: 5,400 Baht
3,600 texts would come to: 5,400 Baht
-------------------------------------> 10,800 THB
Seems to be running you a lot cheaper, until you factor in the real cost of an iPhone 3G in Thailand (ignoring, for a second, the issue of the SIM lock) - that would add about a minimum of $400 --> 14,000 THB
A real SIM unlocked iPhone 3G (returning back to reality) will set you back about 30,000 THB, though, so you need to consider this realistic cost as well.
At this point, the rate is, as I pointed out originally, competitive, considering the iPhone 3G is being subsidized (i.e., you are essentially paying for it over the course of the contract, which in this case is 24 months.
So, you can choose to pay 51,600 THB for a SIM unlocked iPhone 3G, and two years of service from TRUE, or 51,334 THB for the same service and the subsidized iPhone via TRUE's offer.
Lastly, do not forget that while you would be able to use your 'cheaper' UK iPhone in Thailand, for both calls and data roaming, any 'saving' would probably be eclipsed within the first day of making calls or within 20 minutes of data roaming, due to the cost that O2 would pass on to you - so, which makes the comparison pointless, as essentially all you would be able to use your UK iPhone for would be what you'd essentially use an iPod Touch for 
In terms of for the Thai market, TRUE's offer is actually very reasonably priced - the only downside I see is that they do not offer a prepaid option.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:06 am on Dec. 28, 2008
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DaffyDuck
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Quote: from Skip on 1:22 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
Brilliant - what Teerak can resist an iPhone as a gift -- and you get full information over everything she does with it sent to you regularly.
Yes, costly, maybe - but Paranoia generally has no budget.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 2:16 am on Dec. 28, 2008
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Sarge
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Quote: from DaffyDuck on 3:06 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
That's a hell of confusing post (sorry Daffy), the only way to compare true ownership cost for 2 similar products/services is to compare two people using them in their country of origin. Which is what I did. I picked the nearest price plan to my iPhone O2 service.
Let me preface it before I go on commenting your post. Apple iPhone has an almost identical pricing structure (in countries where they're allowed to get away with phone locking) and business plan, around the world. No need to get into details, everybody's aware how it works. Hence here my comparison with a O2 user in UK resident in UK - versus - a True user in Thailand resident in Thailand. Ok now let's use your calculation format, it should be easier for you to understand. Also, I'll only use THB currency to make it easier still. £1 = THB 50.95. Let's proceed without further ado
Thailand/TRUE iPhone plan:
3,600 minutes per year (300 minutes / month)
3,600 texts per year (300 texts / month)
UNLIMITED DATA ACCESS
One off iPhone cost 0 THB
-------------------------------------> 23,988 THB + 7% VAT = 25,667 THB
Versus
UK/O2 iPhone plan:
7,200 minutes per year (600 minutes / month)
6,000 texts per year (500 texts / month)
UNLIMITED DATA ACCESS
One off iPhone cost 5,044 THB (£99)
-------------------------------------> 25,985 THB (£35x12 = £420 + £99 = £510)
It looks identical cost but John would get twice amount of free calls and texts in London against Somchai in Bangkok. Both of them "ARE going to be paying for some sort of service, no matter what" as you said. John gets to talk and text twice as much in London then Somchai does in Bangkok, for the same yearly fees.
Obviously as time progresses Somchai would end up paying more than John mainly because his monthly fee of 2,139 THB (1,999 THB + 7% VAT) is more expensive than John's 1,783 THB (£35). After 18 months he'd have paid 1,364 THB more than John and after 24 months, it'd have cost him 3,500 THB more.
Furthermore whilst John can actually use his UK iPhone in Bangkok, albeit at exorbitant prices (in case of emergency or urgent communication back home) I'm not sure that can be said of Somchai should he go to London for holiday. Finally, do NEVER forget the cost of living when comparing two countries, and I explain:
Somchai spends monthly 2,139 THB
average Thai net monthly salary 12,000 THB (being generous here)
hence his iPhone will weight a whopping 17.8% on his net disposable income
on the other hand
John spends monthly 1,783 THB (after the 5,044 THB (£99) initial outlay cost)
average UK net monthly salary 89,163 THB (£1,750) (being conservative here)
hence his his iPhone will weight a paltry 2% of his net disposable income
If we were to convert Somchai's cost : income ratio to John's, he'd have to pay 15,871 THB on monthly iPhone fees. That's why I said it's actually cheaper to run an iPhone in UK than an iPhone in Thailand. Finally, an unlocked iPhone costs you a shade less than 20,000 THB, so knock 10 grand off your figures (True iPhone v unlocked iPhone) and the picture will change, 10k saving is almost a month salary in Thailand. All in all I can't say it's a reasonably priced offer from True (sorry again Daffy) 
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:30 am on Dec. 28, 2008
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DaffyDuck
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Quote: from Sarge on 5:30 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
It looks identical cost but John would get twice amount of free calls and texts in London against Somchai in Bangkok. Both of them "ARE going to be paying for some sort of service, no matter what" as you said. John gets to talk and text twice as much in London then Somchai does in Bangkok, for the same yearly fees.
Which has absolutely no meaning, as Somchai can't 'buy' his iPhone 3G in the UK to use in Bangkok. These are great numbers comparisons if neither person ever leaves their country.
Quote: from Sarge on 5:30 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
Furthermore whilst John can actually use his UK iPhone in Bangkok, albeit at exorbitant prices (in case of emergency or urgent communication back home) I'm not sure that can be said of Somchai should he go to London for holiday.
It's the same iPhone 3G, so OF COURSE Somchai can use his iPhone 3G in the UK, and chances are that he will be able to actually make calls back to Thailand for far LESS than John Doe will be able to make calls back to England from Thailand... but that's neither here nor there, as both will be slaughtered by the data roaming charges.
Like I said, in both cases, your numbers are nice and cozy if people stay in the UK.
Quote: from Sarge on 5:30 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
Finally, do NEVER forget the cost of living when comparing two countries, and I explain
Which is irrelevant in this case, as Somchai right now would be paying 20,000 THB for a First Generation iPhone, or 30,000 THB for an iPhone 3G (and people *ARE* gladly paying those prices right now), *AT* their paltry salaries - cost of living analysis and how much a person is paying in comparison to their income I found are mostly irrelevant in Thailand, as Thais find a way to afford something they WANT.
Quote: from Sarge on 5:30 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
Finally, an unlocked iPhone costs you a shade less than 20,000 THB, so knock 10 grand off your figures (True iPhone v unlocked iPhone) and the picture will change
Quite a disingenuous changing of variables, as you are quoting the price for a First Generation iPhone, while the TRUE (and UK O@) deals are only offering and supporting iPhone 3G, which is what we are comparing here.
Specifically, for someone looking to get an iPhone 3G in Thailand, and not having 30,000 THB handily available, the TRUE deal of stretching it out across two years, in return for getting slightly higher calling fees (3 Baht vs. 1.5 Baht), is a far better deal.
Quote: from Sarge on 5:30 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
All in all I can't say it's a reasonably priced offer from True (sorry again Daffy)
If you can explain to me how Somchai can take advantage of the offer in the UK, then I might concede -- otherwise, you are comparing Apples to Oranges. I'm sure I could find another country where iPhone TCO would be even less - will you go there to buy one for yourself, then?
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Sexy Bangkok Girls
Posted on: 10:52 am on Dec. 28, 2008
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Broken Leg
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With all those free minutes if john and somchai are anything like dafty and sarge they'll be having lots of seriously dull conversations.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 11:35 am on Dec. 28, 2008
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Sarge
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Quote: from DaffyDuck on 11:52 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
Which has absolutely no meaning, as Somchai can't 'buy' his iPhone 3G in the UK to use in Bangkok. These are great numbers comparisons if neither person ever leaves their country.
In fact neither John can "buy" his iPhone 3G in Thailand to use in London. The whole exercise was to show that if John & Somchai were using the iPhone in their own countries (as Apple and their cohorts force them to do) then John was better off. Pure and simple.
Quote: from DaffyDuck on 11:52 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
It's the same iPhone 3G, so OF COURSE Somchai can use his iPhone 3G in the UK, and chances are that he will be able to actually make calls back to Thailand for far LESS than John Doe will be able to make calls back to England from Thailand... but that's neither here nor there, as both will be slaughtered by the data roaming charges.
Like I said, in both cases, your numbers are nice and cozy if people stay in the UK.
Even if Somchai was able to call home from London, chances are that he'll pay far more than John, doing the same from Bangkok. Yes both will be heavily charged.
Again, the point of this exercise was to compare John using iPhone in London and Somchai using in Bangkok. Apple and their cohorts levy heavy penalties to those who wander off this closely tight business model.
Quote: from DaffyDuck on 11:52 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
Which is irrelevant in this case, as Somchai right now would be paying 20,000 THB for a First Generation iPhone, or 30,000 THB for an iPhone 3G (and people *ARE* gladly paying those prices right now), *AT* their paltry salaries - cost of living analysis and how much a person is paying in comparison to their income I found are mostly irrelevant in Thailand, as Thais find a way to afford something they WANT.
That makes no sense in relation to your post #0 here, yeah sure there always be people who pay over odds and above their means to get an object of desire. But that's not the point you've raised in that post of yours, we're discussing true cost of ownership. In which case John will be less penalised than Somchai. Which is amazing considering the disparity of living cost between the two countries.
Quote: from DaffyDuck on 11:52 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
Specifically, for someone looking to get an iPhone 3G in Thailand, and not having 30,000 THB handily available, the TRUE deal of stretching it out across two years, in return for getting slightly higher calling fees (3 Baht vs. 1.5 Baht), is a far better deal.
you may be surprised but imported unlocked iPhone 3G sells for 20k, had a friend who got for 21,500, only to later spot a vendor in BKK selling them for 19,999. Do an online search and you'll find people flogging 3Gs for around that money in BKK. However, I'll personally check that next week when I'm there. In terms of True offer for people who cannot afford to pay for the full whack, for an imported illegal (from Apple's point of view) unlocked iPhone, same can be said for the UK and any other countries. So what's your point here? The fact is that Somchai will be better off getting a grey import and use a Pay as you Go sim card.
Quote: from DaffyDuck on 11:52 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
If you can explain to me how Somchai can take advantage of the offer in the UK, then I might concede -- otherwise, you are comparing Apples to Oranges. I'm sure I could find another country where iPhone TCO would be even less - will you go there to buy one for yourself, then?
Neither John can take advantage of the offer in Thailand, that's why the only comparison that can be made (as I said in the preface part of my post) is John buying/using the iPhone in London versus Somchai buying/using the iPhone in Bangkok. No, I cannot buy another carrier's locked iPhone, in other countries, to use it in London, nobody can, thanks to Apple and their cohorts. As I have been saying so far. Is that clear enough or do I need to repeat myself further?
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 12:06 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
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Sarge
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Quote: from DaffyDuck on 3:16 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
Brilliant - what Teerak can resist an iPhone as a gift......
the wifey turned down my offer of a True iPhone 3G on the basis it was too expensive, good job that I have an understanding partner, as my 2 yrs old daughter already smashed to pieces 2 Nokia 5610 Xpress Music. Wonder if she'll change her mind when she sees my new iPhone 3G
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 12:50 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
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DaffyDuck
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Quote: from Sarge on 1:06 am on Dec. 29, 2008
In fact neither John can "buy" his iPhone 3G in Thailand to use in London. The whole exercise was to show that if John & Somchai were using the iPhone in their own countries (as Apple and their cohorts force them to do) then John was better off. Pure and simple.
(...)
As I have been saying so far. Is that clear enough or do I need to repeat myself further?
Fair enough - then we were comparing Apples and Oranges, as I was going by my original assertion of claiming that True was offering a competitive offer, i.e. compared to the local economy and usage patterns.
(btw - I bet the 20K iPhone 3Gs being sold are SIM locked iPhone 3Gs, being 'unlocked' with the SIM proxies I described earlier - not a fully true unlock, as it requires a revisit to Somchai at MBK every firmware update - I was sourcing a true, fully unlocked model cost)
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 5:05 pm on Dec. 28, 2008
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Sarge
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Quote: from DaffyDuck on 6:05 am on Dec. 29, 2008
Fair enough - then we were comparing Apples and Oranges, as I was going by my original assertion of claiming that True was offering a competitive offer, i.e. compared to the local economy and usage patterns.
(btw - I bet the 20K iPhone 3Gs being sold are SIM locked iPhone 3Gs, being 'unlocked' with the SIM proxies I described earlier - not a fully true unlock, as it requires a revisit to Somchai at MBK every firmware update - I was sourcing a true, fully unlocked model cost)
nope, your initial argument was about true cost of ownership on the rebound of my assertion that Apple's Thai model (via True) is more expensive than another country. In terms of *just* local market, if khun Somchai gets hold of a grey import, unlocked iPhone 3G and pairs it up with a sim card from an operator of his choice (be it pay-as-you-go or on contract), he'll will be financially better off, not to mention free to swap & change carriers with little (1 month max) or no notice period. But then again, same can be said of John in London or George in Washington and so on...
True are doing what they're instructed to do by Apple, no more no less. This is the business model Apple has implemented around the world, wherever they can get away with locking the device to an appointed carrier. Again this was part of my initial posts here. To sum it up, a fantastic product (iPhone) that offers excellent features but chained to draconian contracts (18 / 24 months to one single carrier), stray off that path and you'll be beaten up to a pulp by the carrier (eyes watering call charges and penalties) and the manufacturer (phone not working and eventually terminally bricked).
This state of affairs will continue until rival manufacturers get their acts together and offer similar if no better phones. Until such time, Apple and their cohorts have a stranglehold on the smart-phone market. Steve's milking the consumers' market to the hilt, he knows he's got 3 years or so before competitors catch up on the iPhone.
My impression is that those grey imports in Thailand come mainly from Asia-Pacific region, namely Singapore & Hong Kong, although I know of some enterprising souls shipping them from Australia. Fully unlocked, no dodgy phones with turbo sims in it. I've seen a website importing such devices from USA and I guess that's what you're referring to.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 1:25 am on Dec. 29, 2008
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DaffyDuck
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Quote: from Sarge on 2:25 pm on Dec. 29, 2008
In terms of *just* local market, if khun Somchai gets hold of a grey import, unlocked iPhone 3G and pairs it up with a sim card from an operator of his choice (be it pay-as-you-go or on contract), he'll will be financially better off, not to mention free to swap & change carriers with little (1 month max) or no notice period.
Except that Somchai has to come up with the entire sum from the get go, while the subsidized option allows him to defer the payments over two years. So, if Somchai is rich, not a problem - if he ain't, he'd prefer the perceived 'zero cost' option. (of course, I'm excluding Bar Girls from this calculation, as they get the phone bought for them by their teerak).
Quote: from Sarge on 2:25 pm on Dec. 29, 2008
and you'll be beaten up to a pulp by the carrier (eyes watering call charges and penalties) and the manufacturer (phone not working and eventually terminally bricked).
This is completely and patently false and untrue -- no phones have been terminally bricked by anything Apple has done. None. Ever.
Software can not terminally brick any iPhone. The only instances of 'bricking' that have occurred is when people modify their hardware, and blow it up - in those instances where people screwed up their software unlocks, iPhones could simply be properly restored, and all was well again, and restored to virginal status.
As for the grey market imports you are referring to, based on the prices of 20,000 THB, it is unlikely (albeit, not impossible) for them to be HK or Singapore phones -- albeit those do cost $800 for the hardware, so I doubt they can just sell it for close to $600 and make a profit.
There are rumors of some folks having cloned the IMEI of unlocked iPhones, and burning them into virgin iPhones - this would work, until Apple figures it out and invalidates that IMEI. Either way, that's rumors, and nothing solid. Just because an iPhone does not claim to use a TurboSIM means little -- some enterprising grey marketeers now solder the TurboSIM *inside* the iPhone, or use special SIM trays with TurboSIM integrated. Cat and Mouse game, indeed.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 2:53 am on Dec. 29, 2008
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