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haam sup
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footballs,
Regarding presents, I have seen guys bring lipstick, small shampoo sample bottles, etc., but it's not my style. Seemed to work for them, though. I do carry a few Tootsie Roll Pops around, which I give to young and old alike, just for fun. Smiles always follow.
Handing out trinkets reminds me of the old "White Hunter" type of movies, tricking the natives into trading the diamonds for worthless junk.
Just my hangup, I suppose...
As far as the tonal nature of Thai, once you realize that it is NECESSARY to learn the tones, it is pretty straightforward. Unfortunately, there is no substitute for time and immersion. The guys who think they can speak Thai, while not attending to the tones, are a great source of amusement to everybody, except themselves. They usually SERIOUSLY believe that they are communicating, and no amount of help will get through to them. It's all about FUN! If you enjoy learning, and can afford to admit to a few mistakes, you will get it.
Have a great time.
haam sup
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 4:00 pm on Dec. 17, 2002
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MrJoe
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Again, Haam makes the point I should have made but didn't -- out of sheer laziness I confess.
I'm all in favor of people who take a very academic approach; ie learning the alphabet, studying texts etc. But if I may say so, after my first 6 months in LOS Thai people began asking me how many years I had been here and after a year they asked if I was born here. On the phone I'm frequently mistaken for Thai and even when I get into a taxi it's often the case that after a brief conversation the driver will say "When I picked you up I thought you were a falang." I have charged high fees to conduct training in Thai and belive me, if my tones weren't right noone would put up with that. What I'm trying to get at (other than just boasting  ) is that I have sufficient reason to belive that my pronunciation is very good.
My method? Total immersion in both language and culture (learning one serves the acquisition of the other IMO). Not one hour of a class nor a single book or tape (though I have since used books). Books are certainly good for a foundation or a supplementary source but Haam is right; there is no substitute for immersion and time. And while it's true that if you don't get pronunciation down, any other knowledge is of little use, the great thing is that Thai grammar is very basic, so once you get the tones right it's essentially a matter of memorizing vocabulary.
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Bangkok Women : Meet Sensual Bangkok Women
Posted on: 9:07 pm on Dec. 17, 2002
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MrJoe
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BTW Haam; I agree that it's probably a personal hangup but I share your feelings on the giving of "trinkets". I would certainly bring gifts intended for specific individuals that I liked but not-one-gift fits-all type to hand out to make freinds. No offense to any guys that do that ; I'm sure it's well intended and received in kind.
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Thai Girls : Meet Sexy Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:12 pm on Dec. 17, 2002
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Byron
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Back walking massage eeh?
No, not really part of a traditional massage. I have experienced it a few times and it can really hurt. If the girl is more than say 50 kg, nah no walking on my back!!!
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 7:17 am on Dec. 18, 2002
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Smegma
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Quote: from MrJoe on 10:07 am on Dec. 18, 2002
And while it's true that if you don't get pronunciation down, any other knowledge is of little use, the great thing is that Thai grammar is very basic, so once you get the tones right it's essentially a matter of memorizing vocabulary.
To me this sounds as if I should give up and not even try to learn Thai. This is worse than the way some (please note I said "some" not all) French act in France - being sometimes (some and sometimes -not all, all the time) obnoxious to the point that although they understand what the poor foreign guy is saying, they pretend not to, just because he is not saying it with the right accent (For thoser who are French here, I learned French at the age of 9, so I am fortunate to sound "authentic") ).
Most people who learn any foreign language as adults never manage to sound "local" and have perfect pronunciation. Hell! I learned English 19 years ago and I still have my south of the border accent. And yes, I pronounce "show" the same as "cho-u" without ths "shhhh" sound
Are you telling me to give up if I do not manage to get it 100%?? Is that what the Thais that have some speech problem do? they give up? Thais who are deaf must suffer more than than deaf people from other countries, as they would never master to communicate by uttering any sounds as it wont sound perfect. What a cruel language!
There are cases in English (and in Spanish, and I am sure in other languages too) of the same word pronounced and written identically meaning something different. How do you get the meaning right? Because of context.
Dont believe me? Examples below:
Spanish example:
El vino ...... what does this means?
"El vino de Portugal ayer" would stand for "He came from Portugal yesterday"
but
"El vino de Portugal es bueno" would stand for "The wine from Portugal is good"
English examples
"fast" as in "he can fast for a long time" has a different meaning from "he came fast"
So imagine, if even when pronouncing it right, it can mean different things.......
I do not believe you need to get prononciation right 100% or else. Because so far, I am managing. Yes, I know I will make mistakes. And I may funny at times. But what is the alternative? To give up? No. I am not afraid of trying or of ridicule. If i keep my mouth shot I know for sure I will not communicate. If I open it.... well maybe I do. But if I do, at at the very least I will have the satisfaction of having tried. And yes, I am tone deaf.
This is just my opinion, and I am nobody anyway. So whatever I say, it doesnt matter 
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Bangkok Women : Meet Beautiful Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:53 am on Dec. 18, 2002
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haam sup
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Smeg,
Yikes!
Please don't get the idea that I am saying that you should give up. Far from it. Just don't underestimate the task.
Since our ears are not trained to hear different tones as ENTIRELY different words, it adds a completely new dimension to the language. There are some truly baffling examples, such as the words for 'near' and 'far': they are both pronounced 'glai', but with a falling tone for 'near' and a mid tone for 'far'. Until you can distinguish those tones, you will be unable to express whether something is close to or far from you! It is NOT a simple case of it sounding 'native' or not, such as in French (which I studied in college), and Thais are NOT snobby about it (or much of anything, for that matter). They simply will not know what word you are trying to say, and will smile. BTW, in Thailand, a smile is NOT usually mocking, but can be a polite way of expressing bewilderment, or confusion, or any number of emotions.
It is not really a case of words being spelled the same, with different meanings (homonyms), or the ability to understand from context. 'Near' vs. 'far' for example, have no contextual clues; they are antonyms. And until we get this idea, we are ALL tone-deaf...
Also, Thais generally APPRECIATE that you speak a few words of their language, if it's in a casual setting. Trying to conduct business with people waiting in line behind you is another story, though...
Thais will tell you that you speak 'geng mak' (very well), even if you don't, because that is their nature. They will do ANYTHING to avoid giving offense.
Note that this applies to Thais in general, but NOT to those who work in tourist areas - some of them are learning to be as rude as those of us who descend upon them every year!
A lot of your success will depend on your general language skills, but ANYONE can do it, given enough time and motivation. Ask yourself if you REALLY want to learn Thai, and why. Do you plan to retire there? Or do you just want to amaze your friends at the Thai restaurant when ordering dinner?
MrJoe had the ideal set of circumstances for learning Thai - total immersion. My approach started differently, and I can guarantee you MrJoe has a MUCH greater command of Thai than I can reasonably hope to attain. Still, my own approach was to try to get a solid base from which to learn, and let time take its course. I made lots of false starts, had to unlearn bad habits, and STILL have a long way to go, but the longest single period I have been able to spend in Thailand is 2 months, so I had to use books, tapes, and classes here in the States to fill in the time between trips. By far the most progress has been made during my time in Thailand, but I am fortunate enough to live near a few Thai temples, and have found a good class or two there.
I have been told that I speak very clearly (probably flattery); my vocabulary is fairly limited, but as my reading improves, I will be able to make do. The only thing that can accelerate my progress now is being there. And I intend to be...
Please accept my apology if I came across as snobby about it, and PLEASE don't infer that the Thais feel that way. If anything, I communicated poorly the first time, and would NEVER want to discourage you.
My one piece of advice is to LISTEN. Listen to as much Thai as you can, even if you don't understand a word at first. Rent Thai videos, watch the international cable channel for Thai programs at home. Listen to tapes. Listen!
Have fun and it will happen.
haam sup
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 3:25 pm on Dec. 18, 2002
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MrJoe
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Why have you reacted so strongly Smeg? Nobody said that one should be 100% perfect or not speak at all and certainly no said not to try.
Haam beat me to it. I can only echo his comments: The comparison to Latin based languages like French, Spanish or English is simply not valid; Thai is a Tonal Language.
HS is correct that my situation was ideal and not one that most people have; I had a year to do nothing but learn all I could (and have a bit of fun of course); Then upon returning to the US, I sought out the Thai community where I lived and continued to practice. Now after having used Thai every day for well over a decade, obviously I've had ample opportunity learn it well. But the fact is many, many Falangs can speak Thai correctly. It can be done.
It's very interesting to me that HS recommends listening as the most crucial step. For 20 years I have been telling people exactly the same thing. I spent my first 3 months doing almost nothing but that and I still watch atrocious Thai TV programs or eavesdriop on boring conversations, for the same reason.
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Thai Girls : Meet Active Thai Girls
Posted on: 9:07 pm on Dec. 18, 2002
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Smegma
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Quote: from MrJoe on 10:07 am on Dec. 19, 2002
Why have you reacted so strongly Smeg? Nobody said that one should be 100% perfect or not speak at all and certainly no said not to try.
True, I reacted strongly compared to my usual reactions. Even stronger than to when I am directly criticized. Sorry for that.
However the sentence " .....it's true that if you don't get pronunciation down, any other knowledge is of little use....." sounded to me like saying get pronunciation 100% or dont bother.
And I am one guy that thinks that I will never get the pronunciation 100% right. I have a heavy accent in English, I can not sing, I can not play any instruments (besides the organ ), I can hear two tones when the words are said inmediately one next to the other. But wait a few seconds between them and I can not tell the difference. if I try to repeat them back, the two things that come out of my mouth sound the same.
But I want to learn Thai. And I agree with most of what the two of you say. It was only two comments on posts earlier to the effect of what I already mentioned that got me going -maybe I just vented part of my frustration with the lenght of time it has taken me to learn the little I have learned. BTW, I quoted only one the post from MJ, but HS also said somethingsimilar earlier on.
Thanks to both for your thoughtful replies. I will keep insisting on learning even at the slow pace I am going.
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Thai Women : Meet Matured Thai Women
Posted on: 12:45 am on Dec. 19, 2002
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MrJoe
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Fair enough. I didn't intend to convey the message you recieved but perhaps I should have been more specific; Some guys learn to read and write and they memorize copious amounts of vocabulary. They can tell you anything you want to know about the Thai language -- but they can't order a plate of fried rice. I've seen this time and time again. That's what I meant about some types of knowledge being of little use if the tones aren't right.
And as far as Thais being able to work it out; because our native languages are not tonal, we tend to think that a difference shouldn't matter if the context is given. I STILL get frustrated when someone doesn't know what I mean if I miss on a tone; I feel like they should be able to figure it out. It actually annoys me. But I know that to them it simply sounds like another word altogether or even a non-existent word.
I often use the following as an example: When I've had staff whose English language skills come only from books and not experience, at the small resort in Koh Samui that I managed (in KS it was quite difficult to get qualified staff) or at the bars before that, I've observed a few times the following scenario:
Customer: Kloster beer please.
Staff: Sorry?
C: Kloster please.
S: Sorry, no have.
Mr Joe steps over: Klos-TER (stress on last syllable as most Thais pronounce English words).
S: Oh! Klos-TER!
I've seen it with Pepsi as well. This sounds impossible I know -- everyone knows Kloster or Pepsi. But because the customer pronounced it in a way that was unfamiliar, the guy had no idea what he wanted. You may find that difficult to belive but it's true.
I would and do encourage everyone to try and work at it. It can be done. But again, that's what they mean when they say it's a tonal language; the tones are paramount.
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Bangkok Girls : Meet Attractive Thai Girls
Posted on: 1:30 am on Dec. 19, 2002
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